Andrew Rubinacci CCO FLYR for Hospitality interviewed by Dorothy Dowling

Curiosity, Adaptability, and Leadership Across Hospitality’s Evolving Landscape

Andrew Rubinacci’s career reflects a journey shaped by curiosity, adaptability, and a willingness to embrace unexpected opportunities. Beginning in operations with a goal to become a general manager, he moved into revenue management after being identified for a new initiative, becoming the first revenue manager at IHG. His path expanded into distribution, digital, and e-commerce roles across major organizations, including Bristol, Maristar, and IHG, where he led early OTA negotiations and gained global experience in Europe.

Across brand, ownership, management, and now technology at FLYR, Rubinacci emphasizes understanding the three core stakeholders in hospitality—brand, owner, and manager—each with competing priorities that shape decision-making. He highlights the contrast between large organizations requiring rigor and alignment, and smaller or integrated businesses that can move quickly. In technology and AI, he stresses staying current through networks, continuous learning, and adaptability, noting that innovation often comes from those able to move fast without legacy constraints. His perspective underscores that while technology is transforming the industry, success still depends on understanding fundamentals and navigating complexity.

Notable Quotes

• “You just work hard. Stay true to yourself.”

• “Speed sometimes helps you win.”

• “You should do revenue management.”

• “You can't get too far behind because it's changing that rapidly.”

• “Work your ass off in your twenties.”

Closing Reflection

Rubinacci’s journey reflects leadership grounded in adaptability, resilience, and continuous learning. He demonstrates how diverse experiences across operations, commercial strategy, and technology shape a broader perspective. By embracing change and staying curious, he navigates complexity with clarity. His approach highlights that success comes from understanding both people and systems.

His story reinforces that careers are rarely linear and often shaped by unexpected opportunities. By working hard, staying curious, and building relationships, new paths emerge. He encourages future leaders to seek knowledge, create opportunities, and remain adaptable. As technology reshapes the industry, those who evolve will remain relevant. Ultimately, his journey shows that growth comes from action, curiosity, and a commitment to learning.

Transcript

Dorothy Dowling 0:05

Andrew, welcome to its Personal Stories. I'm so glad to have you here with us at its personal stories. We focus on the human side of leadership, the experience and inflection points that shape how leaders grow, adapt, and show up over time. What makes your journey particularly compelling is the breadth of perspective that you bring. You've led across brand, the largest third party management company. Worked with a family owned business, and now you sit at the center of innovation on the technology side with fire. That gives you a unique vantage point on how our industry is evolving, especially at this intersection of commercial strategy, distribution, and technology. What I'm especially looking forward to today is get going a layer deeper, not just on leadership, but how you think about business, how you stay ahead of change, and how you evaluate partners and how your experiences across these different environments have really shaped your perspective. So with that as our backdrop, I'm hoping we can start with your journey.

Andrew Rubinacci 1:02

Alright. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. And yeah, it's been a fun journey. I'm still, I've got plenty journey left, but yeah, I

Dorothy Dowling 1:10

certainly hope so.

Andrew Rubinacci 1:12

It's been fun. Yeah. Like when I actually went to school for hospitality and along the way I added which to my parents degree, an extra undergrad degree in marketing.'cause I thought that was interesting. So that's, I think helped shape, what, where I went to, I started in operations had to be a gm Back then, if you wanted to go anywhere in the hotel business, you had to be a gm. So strove towards that. I think, when you look back, every interaction is always you, sometimes there are opportunities that you don't, there know other opportunities at the time, but I think you, you just work hard. Stay true to yourself. They'll open'em up. So I got a management training gig with a up and coming gm couple months later. I went into a hotel, he went to a flagship and brought me over to the flagship. That kind of helped me, and that, and being there. Then there's a new person that came in, regional VP that was, 25 and, he was just brought on and we were working on a Saturday, just him and I in the office and asked me a bunch of questions. And then Monday he came in and said I think you'd be good at this new thing called revenue management. It's a special project from the COO and I think you'd be good at it. So I did that. I was the first revenue manager at at IHG back a long time ago.

Dorothy Dowling 2:26

Wow.

Andrew Rubinacci 2:27

And once again those opportunities, you don't know where they are. Just working on a Saturday, trying to get through budgets. Did that for a while. He put, made me a GM later on because you had to at that point. Then they sold me. I was sold, and went to Bristol Hotels, great company. They found my background in revenue management. Went there and started doing just not risk revenue, but distribution and digital and web was starting. I was the first director of e-commerce there. Then, IG bought Bristol. I went to Maristar, did some more things in distribution, revenue management. Then I did go back to IHG because I was complaining to all the brands.'cause Maristar is one of the largest management company. I was complaining to all the brands about the OTAs as they were coming up and they had to do something. I couldn't negotiate my way out of it with just 200 hotels and hi. She called me up and said, come. Fix it for us. So I did the first OTA deals in the industry, which was fun, and got the opportunity to go work in Europe for four years at the IHG headquarters and, got luxury travel along the way in sales and a whole bunch of different things. And then left IHG went to Omni Hotels as chief Commercial Officer. Then was EVP of commercial, which is chief Commercial Officer at Abridge. Most recently jumped over to the tech side. Didn't wanna be the old guy who didn't understand that ai. So when it came out, I took a class at MIT and I started talking to a couple people and ran into the, and founder of Pace Revenue, which is flyer Hospitality now. And yeah, they created a role for me to help me teach them hotel and they could help teach me ai. So it was a good partnership so far.

Dorothy Dowling 4:05

Wow. I'm wondering if you can unpack a few things for us, Andrew.'cause just that journey of being, brand management company working within a smaller family business, a large company, certainly Omni, but then also on this tech journey that you're on now. I'm just wondering what you can tell us about the differences in how each of those environments really think about growth.

Andrew Rubinacci 4:28

Yeah. They were very different. Along the way. It comes down to the, this industry, everything comes back to the three entities in every asset. The brand, the manager. The owner. And I got to ex experience that at all different ways and the big brands, there was a lot of rigor. You had to think strategically, globally, you had to take into consideration what the impacts were on different parts of the planet and make sure you had language support. A lot of bigger issue things. When you were with Omni was they were brand, the owner and the manager all in one. It was really fun to make decisions very quickly. I just had started there. We're having we just finished budgets. We're having a drink with the COO, the CEO, the owner, myself and CO was complaining about a thing on we used to give door cards for the elite members and they can get coffee and something delivered in the morning. He's it's costing me like$60 to get it delivered in New York. Can we change it? And it is it's the most highly ranked thing for our loyalty program. We can't change it. Said, but why don't we just add like a free drink instead in the bar. So you need either or and let it up to the guest. That was the week before Christmas. I checked into the hotel in New York the week after. Holidays and it was done, not just done there. It was done across the entire brand. So you've worked in a big brand. Yes. Imagine changing a loyalty program. Piece within two weeks. Not just from thought to full execution. That's, that was fun. So yeah very different. But yeah, I think you, you have to understand the environment you're in and there's good reasons on why some of the brands go very slow. But it's also, speed sometimes helps you win,

Dorothy Dowling 6:04

for sure. For sure. And what about being in a tech company now? Are there differences there in terms of thoughts about growth?

Andrew Rubinacci 6:13

Yeah, again we're startups. So growth, we're not talking, single digit now, oh, we're gonna get 3% rev bar growth. It's, can we double revenue? So it's, triple digit growth is the expectation. It's been fun. It's been different, I have been working at larger companies. Even Omni was a, even a 50 some odd hotels. It was a big company, very sophisticated. I'm still shocked in parts of the world where I'm not just, litigating. What my company does right now is revenue management and BI solutions. We're not just saying you should have our system over another one. We're in some cases saying you should do revenue management. Yeah. And I thought that argument was finished, 20 years ago. You should change your prices. So that's been a little bit shocking on how advanced the industry and how far it's come, but also in some places it has not moved. At all. And I think that's, a detriment to the industry in general.

Dorothy Dowling 7:02

No, for sure. I'm just wondering if we can talk a little bit about distribution technology.'cause in my mind it's really the center of change right now in the business. And given, I know you said you made a very deliberate decision to join Flyer to up level some of your tech skills, but. I would love to hear more about how you personally stay current with this fast moving environment that we're all in, and if there's some go-to sources you would recommend to our audience to stay current.

Andrew Rubinacci 7:29

Yeah. Look, I'm not doing the distribution then. I, I was running distribution for multiple companies and, that was in and out doing the actual strategies and then the execution. That's it. I think the, what I've been saying for the last 20 years really hasn't changed. You can't get too far behind because it's changing that rapidly. What I tell you now, there's gonna be wrong six months from now, I think even more so with AI and how that's gonna change everything. I do, use my network read as much as I can through LinkedIn and what's going on there. And HME, I think is another fantastic resource. Not just the education and the information they have there in the seminars, but the networking of the people. I don't have to fortunately figure out, do as much strategy work. Like how am I gonna counter this or what am I do with that? I have some thoughts on it. So I'm not doing that in the day in and day out, but it's, I think you still have to stay relevant because even as a tech provider, I've gotta make sure that whatever I'm providing is gonna meet the needs on the distribution front. Even, through the revenue management systems, I gotta make sure that I've got the right technology, the right performance rates things within my platform in order to make the hotel successful. Yeah. Yeah, I do have to stay up on it, but it's. Somewhat difficult there. There's a lot of information out there and it's always changing,

Dorothy Dowling 8:42

yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'm wondering if you have any perspective on terms of where the most meaningful innovation is really happening today within our industry, or maybe other industries?

Andrew Rubinacci 8:54

Other industries. I, there's so much going on in other industries. I think I'm going to jump over that for a second. I think in our industry, believe it or not, things have changed. I think I see. The larger, independent resorts being at the forefront of more innovation and change. The brands, it just takes them too long. The change pace of change is so rapid that by time they solve a problem they solve. Five years ago is a problem. It, that is an issue. And, when I see large independent resorts, they have the means, the resources and the upside in order to do some really innovative things. I know Peregrine was doing some neat things with how they were approaching stuff. Lowe's is doing some stuff, even Omni's trying to do something, but it's these. Independents that don't have to, not tied to legacy technology as much can move quickly that are doing, more innovation.

Dorothy Dowling 9:51

Yeah, I know a lot of the conversation today is, the rate and inventory piece is mature. I, I also agree with you that there's places in the world where there's still early on that journey, but it's really around the content and how we're gonna gate some content, protect our own channels relative to third parties. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, because that seems to be the center of a conversation today. For sure.

Andrew Rubinacci 10:16

And, you should always make your direct channels best, and you could come up with a strategy that says, I'm gonna outsource my distribution. That's a I don't think that's a. Great strategy, but I could see why a small company or an independent group might wanna do that because it's very expensive if you don't think you're gonna have the technology to outsource it to a third party. But I do believe, personally, I would approach it as own the content, own what you can and then take advantage of what's gonna be the big disruptor. And I think it is ai, AI is gonna completely disrupt the intermediaries. I just did it myself. I created a claw app and got the best pricing on a flight within. Two seconds across multiple brands and everything else. And I don't know what I'm doing, right? So there's gonna be a lot out there that people are gonna create their own agents do very quickly and. How can you make sure you're there and there direct right where you show up. And I think that's understanding how to get the most outta that is a way to maybe take back some of the control the industry's lost over the past, 10, 15 years. Yeah.

Dorothy Dowling 11:18

But

Andrew Rubinacci 11:18

it's gonna be interesting.

Dorothy Dowling 11:20

Yeah, for sure. I'm just wondering if we can talk a little bit more just in terms of the breadth of the different types of businesses that you've been involved with and the differences in terms of priorities. I know you talked about Omni having the full, owning everything and how much faster it was to actually get to an implementation, but I'm just wondering if there's. Different ways that those businesses actually looked at priority setting and, they're different stakeholders and if there's anything that you can share there.

Andrew Rubinacci 11:48

I, I think it's it's the one thing that has probably set our industry up for success long term. And it is the three entities in every asset. We're not an airline. Airlines lose money for the most part. The hotels, you typically, I've been involved with a lot of hotels. I think I've only known of two in my entire career, out thousands that actually lost money. They might have been happy with their budgets. I get that, but actually lost money.

Dorothy Dowling 12:11

Yeah.

Andrew Rubinacci 12:11

I think that is, it's the. Competing priorities. And I think that's why it's so hard to get things done and move the industry forward. The brands, for example, they're paid on gross room revenue. There's a lot of things the brands would want to do are around groups and meetings and food and beverage and all those conversations. They typically go to the owner and say, will you pay us for this? The owner's no, I'm paying you enough already. You should just do it. So then the brand goes I'm getting paid on gross room revenue. I'll just focus on everything on gross room revenue, and that's it. And there's that's a generalization. There are some brands doing some interesting things, but for the most part, the focus is on their core business and they're not gonna move from that. The owner obviously, is trying to maximize the asset, but. Depends on the ownership type, right? If it's, real estate play and they've got a, pro forma is five years or three and a half years into the pro forma, they're like, I'm not gonna put any money into this. I'm gonna, I'm trying to flip the asset in another 12 to 18 months. So it becomes a real estate play, not a hospitality play. And then the poor stepchild is the manager and then the management companies are stuck in between and they're just trying to carve out and they're, they've gotta manage everything and take care of the service and everything else. So it's, very much competing priorities. They're not a hundred percent aligned, as and I think that has held us back. Yeah. I think it's helped protect us when we're not going as lost.'cause airlines could do things. Excuse me if they lose money, but I think when it comes to speed, innovation, moving things forward, competing priorities it's tough. I think the brands would like to do a lot of stuff. They only get 5% in most of royalties. 95% of the benefit goes to the owner. They need the owner to pay and then to try to get in a big brand to 1000, 2000, 3000 owners to all agree on moving forward. It just takes forever. It's hard.

Dorothy Dowling 13:59

Yeah. No, I think that's a really good framing. And I do think understanding the where the money is in terms of all of these different players and how you can create some of that mutual value creation is really critical. But I agree with you. Everyone has shareholders for the most part, Andrew, that they've gotta deliver value back to. And I think sometimes that gets lost in the equation, including all the third parties have shareholders that they've gotta respond to. I'd like to move on a little bit about the intermediary conversation. I know you talked about LLMs and how that's gonna shift, some of the relevancy of the intermediary space, but I'd love to hear about your thoughts on how that's evolving. Is it gonna make more fragmentation or do you see there's gonna be more m and a consolidation activity? What's your point of view there?

Andrew Rubinacci 14:42

I think there'll be both. I think there'll be more fragmentation and there'll be consolidation. The one thing I've learned over my time is even if you can see the writing on the wall or something, big companies take a long time to go away. Very seldom do you have a Kodak that is, when the fortune, 100 and then three years later they don't have anything. Those rapid changes don't happen that quickly. You take a look brands, a lot of brands take the brand equity out for years and years and just draw it down and they're still in business. I remember early in my career, my first head in the first or second head went to a thing about the, in disintermediation of travel and how, the GDSs were dead. And this is, this is a long time ago. The GDSs are not that. Yeah. I think the average for the industry was about 10% of the business. Now it's around five or six a long time for just a half. Now it's gone down in half, but it's a long time. Look I might see the writing on the wall where, you know. AI and LLMs and everyone's having their own agents and digital assistance that can be personalized, that can bypass everything. Could it happen in two years, three years? Yeah. But that'll be 1% of the people. I think big companies aren't gonna sit there and not create value. And Expedia book account are great companies and, Ctrip and everyone else that's out there they'll create value and they'll, take care of that stuff for a lot of people for a long time.

Dorothy Dowling 16:07

I agree with you, Andrew. I think there's a lot of. Very smart leadership at a lot of these businesses, and I think they're continuing to evolve their solutions because they're paying attention to what's going on in the market and are continuing to build new capabilities that are supportive of how the business is evolving as well. So I agree with you. I don't think that we should ever write anyone off that they figure it out and they wanna make sure that they. They survive and actually bring value. I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit about tech partners though, because of some of the seats that you have been in, because I often think everyone is going through this process where they've got multiple players, where they get to choose, and I'm just wondering if there's any advice you would offer to our audience in terms of when you're sitting at the table trying to choose a tech. Partner for whatever that might be. Loyalty, distribution pa, property management, any of those things. What are the two or three things that you think that the person that's driving the selection has to get right?

Andrew Rubinacci 17:08

Yeah. There's a couple things. I guess was. Cursed or blessed? Depends on, I was, interim CIO at Omni for about 7, 8, 9 months at 1.2. Wow. So I've always been on the fringe of it. And I've had, had the ability to select partners too throughout my career. I, first and foremost is the track record. Have they delivered? There's a lot of companies out there that promise a lot, but if you take a look at their track record and how they performed if they haven't delivered for others, they're not gonna deliver for you. If they're always late, they're always, they're there. There's companies out there that have been around for a long time that some of'em just never deliver. And understanding that, I still sometimes am shocked when a big company picks someone like that'cause it just doesn't make any. Doesn't make any sense. That's one. The other one is it future proof? Am I not only solving today's problems, but am I trying to solve tomorrow's? Will this scale with me? Will it still, is the people I'm con working with, do they have a vision? Are they moving in the same direction that I believe the industry's going or my needs are going? I think that's very important. And then, last is cost Isn't everything. If you go for the lowest bidder, your chances are we'll fail. Now, sometimes you get the golden everything and everything lines up and it's the cheapest and best and with some disruptive technology that is possible. But take a look at really what you're getting is the value there is the customer service there. You have the support. If something breaks, they're gonna, are they gonna be there for you? That I think is really important because then, I have dealt with vendors in the past that they just, you have 2000 tickets sitting there and they're not, for two years, some of them. Yeah. And yeah, that, that is not helpful. You're losing money every day.

Dorothy Dowling 18:48

I think I love all those points that you're making because I do think the deliverability and really doing very deep reference checks with people that you trust is really important.'cause I do think that understanding of how the business materializes and if they were able to, meet their promises. I also love that. Aspect of are they future proofing and are they gonna scale with you? Because I do think really unpacking that and understanding the people that are associated with continuing to evolve the business, that's really important.'cause there's a lot of companies out there that are status quo that aren't gonna be able to deliver as a business evolves. And I really do think, that piece of price is important, but it may not be the most important thing because I agree with you. If you don't get the continued support that you need to keep the business going and they don't have the right kind of suce success teams associated with you, that's a big deal. So I really thank you for that.'cause I know it comes down to the basics, but it really is meaning you do your homework as you're looking at the selection and really have some rigor around that process of validating what they're presenting to you. I'm wondering if we can move on a little bit, Andrew, because I wanna talk about your time with H-S-M-A-I. And I do wanna approach this very thoughtfully because during your tenure when you were the chair of the board, the organization experienced a loss of Bob Gilbert who meant so much to so many of us across the industry. And I know that put enormous pressure on you because you were the chair and you had to keep the lights on and really figure things out. So I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about. What that meant in terms of the personal kind of elements that you had to contend with, as well as all of the leadership associated with H-S-M-E-I.

Andrew Rubinacci 20:32

Yeah, look on a personal from that aspect, it was obviously extremely difficult. Knew Bob for many years, we were friends. It was, that was really tough. I think also because I knew Bob and knew what, HSMI meant to him. That kind of made me, double down. I have to make this work, I have to make it right. And I was so fortunate that the staff was amazing. They all stepped up and they were hurting and they knew, and worked for about 20 plus 30 years, a long time. And the rest of the board and the executive committee were just fantastic and helping take some burden off'cause. It was tough. I was not too long under a year in my current job. Dealing with that, trying to make sure that the organization stayed not just current but thrived going forward. We're about to hit our hundredth year anniversary here next year I wanna make sure we have everything for that. And just try to, make Bob proud, that was always in the background. It was a difficult time, but just, working extra, I guess for Bob, for the people, the staff. They were, yeah, it was difficult, but, rewarding. I think we've gotten to a good place there. We are set up for the hundredth hundred year anniversary. I think he'd be very proud of what we've been able to do, and especially with the new launch of the Bob Gilbert Award. So that's that's a big thing in his honor, so I'm proud of that.

Dorothy Dowling 21:50

I'd like to thank you for that Andrew.'cause I do know it just put an enormous pressure on you in terms of the time commitment and then also just tending to everybody emotionally.'cause there was a lot of people that were extremely engaged with Bob and everybody was devastated by his journey.

Andrew Rubinacci 22:08

Yeah.

Dorothy Dowling 22:09

And also just his loss because he had been at the forefront for so long. But I do think you handled it very admirably and quite honestly, I often thought about a new job and balancing all the demands of what that requires and doing everything that you did so thoughtfully. So I would like to thank you. Thank you. I think Bob would be very proud, and I know you did very well by his family and the team too, in terms of. Giving them the time to sort through some of the emotional things, but also keep the business going in such a positive direction. So thank

Andrew Rubinacci 22:40

you. No I appreciate that very much.

Dorothy Dowling 22:42

Yeah. So I'd like to move forward and talk a little bit about the future generation because. This is always something that, that we like to think about. And if you were sitting advising sort of those future leaders in terms of what's gonna matter most in terms of their personal development and professional development to keep them vital in the next decade what would be your words of wisdom that you would offer to them?

Andrew Rubinacci 23:07

It's not that different from when I was coming up, but it is different. So it's stay curious, learn as much as you can. Work your ass off in your twenties. Just do everything. You can say yes, do what you can to learn as much. There's a lot of remote work, so that's an issue. So can you, I just had one, someone from, my fraternity, I'm involved with my national fraternity. Someone from the Ohio chapter said, Hey, can I just pick your brain? I wanna network. Do that. Be curious. Get on, get with people. You're not gonna be around the water cooler. You're not gonna get the osmosis of sitting in and getting invited to a meeting they might not have, should got into, but they got you in there and you are learning a lot. You're not gonna have those opportunities. Take advantage of it. Make the opportunities for yourself and, I think the people who are curious and work hard will always, move forward. I think it's gonna be different time. I think AI is gonna change things. The opportunity to become an analyst and learn a lot. Some of those jobs are gonna go away, but there'll be new jobs that are created. Stay on top of it.

Dorothy Dowling 24:09

Yeah. No, I totally agree with you Andrew, and I love the way that you framed up in terms of really trying to insert yourself in terms of some of the networking opportunities.'cause I just think about my own career and I know yours is not all that different, that so much of it came through just being on the job and the osmosis of watching and. Being in rooms where you got to observe, and so there has to be a way to close that gap. I'm just wondering if there's anything beyond that learning journey and that investment in terms of building relationships and networking, if there's any kind of subject matter expertise that people should really be focused on in terms of their learning journey.

Andrew Rubinacci 24:48

Yeah, it's gonna be less around tasks and more around leadership, more around strategy, more around how how things work, not doing the work. There's gonna be, and that's gonna change and continue to change, especially as robotics comes in. And, if you're, I've got kids who are, 24 and 27, the world's gonna be completely different by the time they're my age. And, how is that gonna journey me? I think, it's still gonna be come down to, there'll still be salespeople. You still have nothing starts until someone sells something. You have to have, strategy and where's the company going and where are things happening. I think how that's comes about could be very different, could be major companies, could be millions of little entrepreneurship companies where people carve out their own niche. If I knew I'd probably be betted. Depending with some stock, but I think it's gonna be very it's gonna be interesting time. There's so much change that's happening. I do believe, when the computer started in the seventies and eighties, when you know it changed everything. I think AI and everyone talks about ai, but I really do think AI will change everything like that same type of sea change where you just, you know. Everything changes. And I was on stage a little while ago with some students, and you asked, how'd your career go and what, what'd you pick? And 80% of the jobs I've had didn't exist when I started. So think about that. The revenue management didn't exist, digital marketing didn't exist. Distribution strategy, none of those things. Really even, we're around. I don't know what it's gonna be. All I know is if you work hard, you're smart. You just put your full effort towards it, good things will happen.

Dorothy Dowling 26:24

I think that's a really good advice and I think it gives people comfort. Andrew and I just, I love the way you framed up all the things that were meaningful in your career that really just evolved over time and you were just, you were prepared, you obviously had people that believed in you, you had done the work, so you were invited in to grow some of those opportunities. And I agree with you, we don't know what that future is, but it is around staying really relevant in terms of your learning journey. And I do think a lot of it has to do with respecting how important a network is and how. Having people trust you and building, that confidence through delivering with the partners that you work with, how it, it really does build your career. And you are a testament to that when I think about all of the places that you have been and just the intersectionality of some of the businesses that you've led. And that really is, speaks to the kind of confidence that people have that you could deliver for them. It's an amazing career that you've had, and I know you're not done yet.

Andrew Rubinacci 27:23

Thank you.

Dorothy Dowling 27:25

So if I may I'd like to express my appreciation to you Andrew, and just really helping us connect the dots.'cause I do think your background across all of these different pieces of the industry is really meaningful to our audience. And I really like some of the practical advice that you. Given in terms of where we are, where we're headed and I know that there's so many leaders right now that are challenged with the complexity that they're facing. So some of that advice that you have given and the comfort that you've extended in terms of how to navigate change I think is meaningful. So thank you. And I also just wanna thank you for all of your leadership to our industry.'cause I know you were chair, but you're still now past chair of H-S-M-A-I. And you do a lot of work with a lot of the different associations. Are voluntary but it's very meaningful that you continue to give back. So thank you for all that you do, for all of us. And if I could just close off with all of our audience and thank you for joining us. And if today's conversation resonated with you, I invite you to explore more interviews like this one with Andrew today on its personal stories.com. So thank you, Andrew.

Andrew Rubinacci 28:30

Thank you. I appreciate it.