Betsy O'Rourke, Commercial Advisor, former Chief Commercial Officer, Xanterra Travel Collection interviewed by Dorothy Dowling

In this interview, Betsy O’Rourke, former Chief Commercial Officer at Xanterra Travel Collection, reflects on her lifelong journey in travel and hospitality—from crewing on boats in Malta to leading global brands. She discusses strategic leadership, resilience through crises, and mentoring future leaders. Betsy emphasizes curiosity, agility, and empathy as essential traits for growth in both business and personal development.

Transcript

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Dorothy Dowling 0:05

Greetings. I'm Dorothy Dowling, and welcome to its Personal Stories, a podcast dedicated to exploring the lives and lessons of hospitality's most inspiring leaders. Today I'm truly honored to be joined by Betsy O'Rourke, an industry icon whose leadership journey has banned hotels, cruise lines, destination marketing, and outdoor and experiential travel. For more than a decade, Betsy served as Chief Commercial Officer at Sentara Travel Collection where she led both the crews and outdoor division shaping the brand's growth and defining its commercial success. She recently transitioned to serve as commercial advisor to the CEO and executive team, continuing to guide strategy and brand evolution across the organization. Betsy's, strategic brilliance, global mindset, and commercial acumen have made her a trailblazer in shaping how brands connect to travelers and how teams define success. She's one of those very rare leaders who clarity of thought and commitment to excellence have inspired so many of us. Betsy, it's wonderful to have you on its personal story. Welcome.

Betsy O'Rourke 1:12

Thank you and thank you for that incredibly flattering introduction. I'm quite humbled by it and I'd like to know her

Dorothy Dowling 1:25

and you know her well, Lexi, so I. I'm hoping we can unpack a lot of your wisdom today. That's always our goal. So I was hoping we could just jump in and really just hear from you. What first drew you to the world to travel and hospitality, and how did your early experiences, especially growing up in Europe, shape your worldview and leadership lens?

Betsy O'Rourke 1:45

Yeah, no it's a great question. I was for, as I moved to Europe when I was 11. My parents went through a divorce and my mother remarried a Maltese man, so most people in those days didn't really even know where Malta was. But we moved to Malta and I ultimately went to boarding school in Switzerland and then lived in London and did my A Levels did university in Paris. So I was in Europe traveling about having a wonderful time for about 11 years. Before coming back to the States and my very f my jobs in sub in Malta were crewing on boats. So people in at Windstar always laugh at me because they say I started as a crew member, but then I got a real job at at the Hilton. Resort, which was the number one resort on the island at the time. And it was after I graduated from high school, but before going to university. And I'm telling you, it was the greatest job. I just had the most fun. That summer I was in charge of all the VIPs and the average length of stay at that resort was two weeks. So I had a lot of interaction with guests. Yeah. And most of them were British, but a lot from all over Europe. It was just fantastic. But it also gave me total vision into how hotels complex resorts operate. So it was that I was hooked. That's when I knew I wanted to be in travel.

Dorothy Dowling 3:07

That's an amazing foundational opportunity in terms of experience, something like that on the ground level. Betsy I'm just wondering if we can if you can. Talk a little bit about just the multidimensional nature of your career, because obviously you've worked in hotels, you've worked in the cruise line, destination marketing with us, travel. Then of course you went on to lead a very complex business at Sentara. I'm just wondering if you can walk us through some of those key chapters and what inspired you to move from one opportunity to the next.

Betsy O'Rourke 3:36

Yeah. I have I have been really lucky because I just have had my whole career in travel, as yeah, it started with the American Hotel and Lodging Association which was then H and Ma, the Motel Association, but they changed anyway. The beauty of that role was actually meeting so many people in the industry at such a at the very beginning of my career really. So that was. Just luck. And one of the great bonuses of working in an association, because I got to meet all the leaders, all the CEOs of all the corporations, the GMs at the major, famous resorts and of course the communications folks, because that was my role. So I got to know all of them. And some of those folks remain dear friends of mine. For now over 30 years. We've watched each other go and grow as we like to say. But make making moves. The quick history is h and LA. I had my own business for a few years when I first got married, and again, thanks to h and LAI had a lot of contacts and great clients very quickly. But I did make that small business person's mistake where I had two huge clients choice hotels in Hilton, and they both said. You're coming to work for us full time, we're no longer gonna connect. So I had these two amazing job offers and I chose to go to Choice Hotels, and that was being held, that was being run by Bob Hazzard and Cherry Petit. True legends in the industry. I will forever be grateful. It was one of the best choices I ever made. I learned. So much, but, so we had the run and then we got spun off from Manor Care and I, Bob and Jerry left and I stayed and, worked through the transition of being a public company, our own public company, a new CEO, et cetera. And then. Bill Norman called me from TIA and said, we have this idea, our board really wants to develop an international marketing plan. And they had worked with a consulting firm. I think, I can't remember which one. And anyway, we were one of the few, as one of the few countries that. Didn't have a national tourism office. And so the industry was coming together to say, let's develop a co-op program and put our own international marketing program together. And that was the job that so again, the consistency in every one of these jobs is opportunity and a challenge. And that was a big challenge. As 'cause I think you participated, we developed the See America program. The entire industry participated and, I like to think that it was the baby demonstration project for what now is brand USA, and kudos, to Jeff Freeman and who, who put that program basically in place, Roger Dow. Those two together got that done. So I felt for sure. I felt like my fingerprints were at the very beginning of that, along with many people in the industry. And then through that I also got to know Steve Holmes. And then when Sendent broke up into, four different comp companies, which you're very familiar with. And one of those was worldwide. And coming straight onto the market as a whole new company, but with all these mature brands. And one of the people that I met way back at h and LA was working at Wyndham and recommended me to Steve Holmes, who then remembered me and. I was offered this amazing job, which, the big challenge there is put Wyndham on the map, but we had Wyndham vacation ownership, Wyndham Hotel, franchising, and then Wyndham, vacation rental and exchange. So we had these three divisions. We were number one in every category, but everything was named Wyndham. So it was it was quite the challenge and the most, it was a really great job and I loved Steve Holmes. And then 2008 happened and, you may remember anybody with any kind of real estate businesses was hurt. The hardest. The fastest. And so unfortunately the timeshare division definitely took a hit, made a good comeback over the years, but that particular year, and then Adam Goldstein from World Caribbean calls and says. We wanna take the brand global and would you apply for the CMO role? And that was the challenge for them. Many of their guests were sourced, as we like to say, in the business from the US and they were gonna home port ships in different parts of the world. And we needed to know that we had a brand that would resonate with different nationalities and so I joined Royal Caribbean on that quest and it was an amazing journey. I think anyone who's ever had the privilege to work for Royal Caribbean, you just learn so much. Their standards are so high, the people are so bright. And I got to launch at that point, the largest ship in the world Oasis class. We were the number one term search on Google that day. Oh, wow. One of the great accolades of that day. But yeah, we launched Oasis and then Allure and I got to be in the product development side on, quantum class. It's just a, it's an amazing company. And then, right after we launched Allure, I got a call from a headhunter about this job at Sandara, a company I had never heard of. And it was the only private company that I actually. Looked at I'd always worked for public companies but this one was just so unusual. And, they are the number one concession to national parks and they also own a historic railroad. And, they had just bought Wind Star and they had nobody who knew anything about cruises. I was a good match for them. And again, a great adventure. I joined at the perfect moment because the owner of Philip Anschutz. Wanted to acquire new businesses. And so during my tenure we acquired, new hotels, three tour operator companies, ships from Seaborn double the size of the fleet. It was an exciting time to be there. So that's the journey.

Dorothy Dowling 9:22

It's an amazing journey, but then I think it really speaks to the introduction of who you are, because I think that thread of your leadership and your. Your focus on really delivering results has just stood you up in a way in the industry that people have come and wanted you to join their teams to really lead their businesses. So congratulations. It's an incredible career and I'd like to unpack a little bit about some of the learnings and wisdom that you can share with our audience because. You consistently. This is one of the things I truly admire about you, Betsy. This rare ability to really drive growth and commercial clarity. You really focus in on total addressable market. Where to prioritize, how to translate strategy into measurable outcomes. I'd really like to hear how you develop that discipline in terms of your focus and then really building it out to execution.

Betsy O'Rourke 10:16

Wow. Gosh. First of all, I think you and I are very similar in our ability to do all those things, so thank you. But for me it's it's really, you start with the p and l and the money, right? Follow the money, as I had to say internally, know where your profit, your highest revenue and profitability you're coming from. So that was always the driver for me. Is really get to know the numbers, really un understand your data. Who is your customer? Who are your most valuable customers? All the things that we it's what I call the basics, right? But once you understand that, I think one of the greatest advantages of bringing somebody in from the outside to a company, that's no matter at what level is you are looking at everything with fresh eyes. It's the first, everyone knows more about their business than you do when you show up, right? Everyone, literally. But if you really study that p and l and you really understand where the profitability is coming from, and then you make sure from an allocation perspective, that was one of the things you talked about is that was one of the first things I would look at is where is the brand spending money? So where are we earning money and where are we spending the money? And then what is the ROI on that spend? And then, when you have those fresh eyes, sometimes in, in my case, you will find that hidden jewel that's something that little nugget that other people may be taking for granted that you see an opportunity for growth. So it's it's a little bit of a treasure hunt, but get the core right first. And then find the treasure. That's the way I look at it.

Dorothy Dowling 11:55

I really like the way you framed that up in terms of the treasure hunt because I do think it is that ability to prioritize and really follow the money. I do think that's incredibly valuable advice that you're offering. And I do think people get distracted 'cause there is just so much that comes at people. But I think understanding the p and l. Because I think a lot of marketing and sales leaders, that's not their first place where they go. And I think the part that warms owners' hearts when you speak Betsy, is that you speak the word profit, not revenue, so that they truly understand where the business income really is for the ownership. So I think those are really important lessons for our audience. I'm just wondering if we can talk about defining inflection points. I know you, you described this leadership journey and how these calls came in, but I really would love to hear about those moments when you realized that you were stepping into something bigger and figuring that out.

Betsy O'Rourke 12:53

Those moments always, there are those moments that happen in happy circumstances, but the biggest of those moments tend to happen in a crisis. And what I'm fortunate that I'm actually really good at crisis. It's not that I ever want, but, I I just, you gotta really be able to understand exactly what's happening from a global perspective, an industry perspective. But then you need to look into your business, or in the case of, however many brands you have, where is the highest impact? And how are you going to manage your communications first and foremost around it? So every crisis is a little different, but we've all lived through them, right? My first big one was the Iraq War. Which, we had to completely kill the campaign. We had planned, we bought Upfront Media and create a new campaign in the space of one week. That's literally what we did. And we came up with the yellow Ribbon campaign and it was a huge success. But you gotta be nimble, you gotta be fast, you gotta really get it, or you can lose a lot of money. Nine 11, we all know what happened in nine 11. Then you had the 2008 crisis. We talked about that a minute. And of course, COVID. So in each of those cases, there, there were different responses, but the advice I would give is get as much data as you can, respond as quickly as you possibly can. Being able to communicate is so important. So you have credibility and stability for the brand, both internally and externally.

Dorothy Dowling 14:28

I think that ability in terms of understanding that urgent and important kind of framing and really being able to dig in Betsy and then having the agility to really focus in and prioritize and move the needle. I don't know if that came to your communications training in terms of being, really agile and in a difficult situation. But I do think when we understand the perishability of inventory of our industry and the fact that. Owners of the real estate or the assets are really counting on us to hopefully save as much as we possibly can and drive as much results as we possibly can in a period of time. But that's where I've seen that thread of your leadership in terms of your ability to focus, to prioritize and really move the needle. So again, I think that sense of. And then really being able to focus in is something that our audience can really learn from you. I don't know if there's anything that you would elaborate on in terms of a personal mantra there that's anchored you through all of these transitions and help you stay grounded. But I'd love to hear if there is anything that has helped you through those challenges.

Betsy O'Rourke 15:34

I think, I think first of all, you gotta remember you chose this job for a reason and they chose you. So when you're feeling like, oh my gosh, am I gonna be able to handle this moment? Or remember that, go back to that. We chose each other and that always gives me some confidence in those moments. But also from a leadership perspective, I just think, being able to really support your team, understand what your team is going through in those moments, whether it's day-to-day life, but in particular in a crisis. Not everybody responds the same way. So over communicating, I, I'm coming back to that I also I just think leaning into your teams, right? People will step up if they're given the opportunity and particularly if they know that you've got their back. So one of the things that, I pride myself on and that I think has won, great loyalty from my team members is they know I, I am their flack jacket. I am I feel like that's part of my job is to clear the way for them to do their jobs. I don't want them to have to deal with any kind of obstacle. So come to me, tell me what the obstacle is and let me be that. Barrier buster so that they can get their jobs done. And the other thing is, you know what I talked about earlier where make decisions quickly. And I don't mean, obviously make decisions that are sound but. Make decisions quickly because while people are waiting for your decisions, they're on pause. That's never good for the brand or the company. So I'm a believer in that as well.

Dorothy Dowling 17:12

I think there's two things that I heard from you, Betsy. I love that conversation, that pause of self talk about remembering they chose you and you chose them and that you're in it together. 'cause I think that sense of teamwork. And commitment to each other to work through those challenging situations is really powerful. Yeah, and I also love the analogy of the flap jacket because I do think when your teammates know that you're gonna take those bullets for them and that you're gonna allow them to take risks, and that you're going to encourage them to really think through and own situations, I think that also is very powerful as a leader. So thank you. I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit about some of the career decisions, because a lot of people struggle with making bold career moves because they just don't feel like they have the full competency that someone might be looking for. How did you make some of those bold decisions and not hesitate when some of those doors were opened for you?

Betsy O'Rourke 18:09

Yeah, no I've thought about that. Quite, obviously every career decision you make is an important one, right? And I, I was fortunate that I absolutely could have stayed where I was and I'm sure that would've been another phenomenal journey. So it's not that I necessarily made the right decisions, but it did work out in the right for me. But I'll go back to what I said earlier. I just. It's very tar hard for me to turn down a good challenge. I love a good challenge and as I say to people all the time, there are three pieces to job satisfaction. You gotta earn what you think you know is the appropriate, so there's obviously the money. You have to be able to learn new things all the time, to keep that interest and challenge and passion alive. And you gotta have some fun. You gotta really enjoy the work. And so if you can get three of those three you're don't leave. If you have two of those three, it's time to look. And if you only have one of those three or none of those three, why are you there? So I'm not gonna say that I had that experience. I was happy in every role I ever had, but the opportunity of leaving for me was there was some new challenge or some new thing that I was gonna be able to learn and contribute to that brand that I was gonna be able, and that was really the driver of this changes. And obviously all the circumstances have to fall into place. You have to really like the leadership. You have to like the brand, you have to obviously the role. So for me, I was just incredibly lucky, I feel to be have those opportunities and be able and the only other thing I will say is these skills are very transferable. When I went to Royal Caribbean, having never been in cruise and having never taken a cruise, I reminded them, but for example, when I was working with the new Build team, there were so many best practices in the hotel industry on new build design, and I was able to introduce those, for example, to the cruise industry and to Royal, and they adopted. Some of the best practices from a hotel, which they would never have had visibility to, right? So I think it's just an example of how skills transfer over whatever you're doing in our world of marketing, branding, sales, pr it tra one could say it transfers to any industry. It certainly transfers easily within travel.

Dorothy Dowling 20:29

Yeah. No, I think that's great advice to really be able to do that kind of assessment on the compensation piece, the learning opportunities and the fun piece, and then really be able to do that kind of assessment of your own skill matrix. Yeah. Where you wanna grow and what you're gonna bring to the table. So that's really great advice. I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about the learning side, Betsy, because there's so much of a conversation today about. Of the upscaling that all of us are being asked to do on a routine basis. When you went into some of these new verticals, you would've had to have had a development plan for yourself. How did you build that and adapt sort of the kinds of things that you shared, that you brought that hotel knowledge over to the cruise line? What did that look like for you?

Betsy O'Rourke 21:14

For me it was just crazy amounts of reading. Honestly. It's self-education and, one of the byproducts of moving to Europe at the age of 11 is I couldn't watch any TV. If there was tv it was in German or Maltese or Italian, at the time, I didn't speak those languages. And the programming was entirely different. So I became a very good reader. And my mother was a prolific reader and had a ma I I learned to read at a very young age, and that became one of my favorite things to do. And the result of that is I also am a very fast reader, so thankfully when I move into a new role I am looking for anything and everything that I can read. I obviously do a lot of research before. I go into a new company, as I'm sure we all do, particularly if you're going into a C-Suite role. So I knew a lot, but you never really know anything until you get inside. And then once you have access to all of those, like we talked about the p and l, all of the budgets, all of the brand definitions, all of you know the work. Really the work that's going on around you. And then, talking to my peers, I would spend a lot of time talking to my peers who had been there. Obviously anybody, everyone was there longer than me and what were their experiences both in joining the company, but now that they're in the company learning about the culture. So it was really, it's multidimensional because there's the whole people part of it. They're judging you, you're judging them. Everybody's trying to figure everybody out. I really invested a lot of time getting to know my peers, obviously getting to know my team. And obviously making sure I understood what the CEO expected of me and my team as part of the bigger organization.

Dorothy Dowling 23:03

I think that again is great advice. I'm a big reader. Like you, Betsy and I do fondly believe there's a lot out there in the public space that we can take advantage of to become smarter, and Warren Buffett always tells us that obviously one of his tickets to his success too is that he is a very well read individual. But I also just think that peer. Ability to learn from others and to be humble, which you always are in terms of understanding what they bring to the table so that you can learn from them. But I also think that clarity of alignment with the CEO is critical in terms of understanding expectations. For you and for your team so that you can really build that sense of alignment with leadership. All really great advice to our audience, so thank you. I wonder if we can talk a little bit about global empathy. I know we're in a particular time and our history, but I'm just wondering about how leaders, particularly leaders that are in global roles, really can build that understanding of being a good global leader, and especially when you're leading teams that. Come from very different cultures, you've got time zones that you've gotta navigate. What kind of advice would you offer to our audience?

Betsy O'Rourke 24:15

Yeah, I, that's a great question because I think it's hard. I think it's hard because, I'm gonna go back to my childhood here, where when I went over to Switzerland, and arrived in day one, and I'm this little American kid from California. And you start to notice that they do things differently, right? They have and then all of a sudden you realize maybe the way we do it isn't the, not only is it not the only way, it may not be actually the best way. So thinking about that, my view is you always need to be really listening carefully to the local. Whoever's on your team who represents that local population because they've forgotten more, you're than you're ever gonna know. About their culture, about how their media works. It, and it is, you have to accept that it's going to be different and just trying to impose, so there's that balance between you want a global brand standard, for example, but at the same time, you've gotta really listen to those local experts and make sure that they feel heard, and frankly follow their direction in terms of messaging and communication. Your media choices and your tone of voice, all those kind, your imagery can change without impacting your global brand standard. So that's my best advice. Thank goodness for technology because the face-to-face like you and I on this call versus just listening to each other, I think really helps. I think when people actually see each other and can look at each other eye to eye on a call, even if they haven't had a. Personal relationship, it helps to bond you as opposed to just hearing a voice and not being able to see their facial expressions when you're, so I think that's also been a huge help to anybody in a global leadership role. But yeah, time differences are a killer.

Dorothy Dowling 26:08

Yeah. They make for very long days. But the thread that I hear about you, Betsy, it's just the humility that you bring to your leadership. You talked about it earlier with your peers and joining new businesses. But it's also when you're leading teams that come from other parts of the world and recognizing how much they bring to the table and being deferential to their knowledge, their expertise, and their understanding. And I think when you build that kind of trust with your team. Give them that leadership opportunity. I just think that the kind of awards in terms of both the learning they bring to you and the capabilities they bring to your organization are extraordinary. But I think it's really the humility that you bring in your leadership that brings them instead of everyone. So thank you for sharing that. I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit about mentorship, because you've always been a powerful advocate for it. You mentor others, but I'd love to understand how you decide to invest your time. Who you decide to invest your time in. What are the decisions that go into some of that for you?

Betsy O'Rourke 27:10

First and foremost, let's start with how lucky I've been to have amazing mentors, right? So I've had very big shoes to fill in terms of great examples of people who have been so important in my life all along my career. And for me, recognizing a high performer. And giving them visibility to senior leadership. And then, as I like to say, giving them unsolicited advice until they then come and ask for advice. So if you ask, how do I decide I, I can see those high performers and I just wanna see them go and grow. And I'm gonna do everything I can. And like I said, I do the unsolicited first. Hopefully they're gonna become comfortable enough that they will then start coming to me for advice. And that's the moment. That's the moment when you know, okay, I can be a great mentor to this person. 'Cause it flipped.

Dorothy Dowling 28:05

I love the way you talked about that in terms of those high potential and the insulate advice. And I know we've talked about how. A lot of your journey has been powered by others that saw something in you that you may not yet have seen in yourself. I'm just wondering if there's any particular stories that you can highlight along that journey, because I think you had told me that every job, except for the last one you took with Sentara, was always someone calling you because of the existing relationship. You what your journey had been with them prior. So I'm wondering if there's anything you might share with our audience about that journey of mentorship for you.

Betsy O'Rourke 28:43

Yeah that's true. Every job I took was, a referral from somebody who knew me until Zantara then that was head on. But gosh, what can I say about that? At HNMA, I guess that was the first time that I really, bill Edwards was the chairman and president of Hilton Hotels Worldwide, and he happened to be the chair of the association that year. And, I was young, I was 28 or 29 in this job, and the only female, and he really took me under his wing and he just became this incredible mentor for me. And, and that, and he was available. What did he teach me? I, if think about it. When I think about it now. His accessibility to me was really quite remarkable because I could literally pick up the phone and he would take the call literally at any time. And now I think, oh, my GI mean, I was so young and so naive. I didn't think I don't think I really realized how imp important that was. And that's, I, that's stayed with me when one of the people that is reaching, if somebody's reaching out to me and asking for my advice, I am going to respond incredibly quickly. So fast because I want them to know I'm a hundred percent here for you. This the way he was for me. And then, it went on. Bob and Jerry, I've talked about Bob's wife, Vicki, who's incredible. She used to be the head of HR for Best Western Worldwide. Such an ama. I've just been lucky to have incredible people in my life. It just gives me such joy to pay it forward. I love seeing young people who are super talented, ambitious, hardworking and have so much potential if I can contribute to getting them to accelerate up that ladder so they can have more impact. What a gift. That's how I look at

Dorothy Dowling 30:31

it. No, I think that's a beautiful way to say it, that say that gift of giving and trying to pay others back for the kind of. Journey that they gave you. So thank you for that. I'm wondering if we can talk now because you're part of a generation of women leaders who've had to deliver big, often in male dominated spaces you had to balance parenting and the demanding career. I'm just wondering how you navigated all that tension between the work demands and the family demands. Any lessons that you would offer to other parents in the workplace today?

Betsy O'Rourke 31:05

It's hard, right? And when we were doing it at least when I was doing it there, we didn't have the benefit of the technology. I was taking a briefcase of paper, like I couldn't just get on my, internet, which didn't exist at the time. So I think technology has helped. Working parents enormously. And thank, I'm very thankful for it in my day. I think I was just incredibly lucky to work for amazing men who understood that I did have a life outside of work and that, I was always gonna put my kids and my family first. Always. And so I made it very clear from the get go that, that was. Part of, it was know who I am before you hire me, kind of conversation, so that we were on the same page at the same time. But at the end of the day, if you deliver your work and you make your deadlines and you're doing what's expected of you. Very few bosses, in my view, are gonna have a problem with you asking for some flexibility here and there. And I think you, you know what I really would say don't do is don't sneak around. Be direct. Go to your boss, ask for what you need. And if you're that person who's gonna make your deadline, whether you're sitting at the side of a soccer field or sitting in your office. They're going to let you go. You. It's I don't think you're gonna get the resistance is my point. And that's how, certainly how I always treated anybody on my team. And I was very lucky with all the men because I did work for all men, and they were fantastic. Jerry Petit would leave to go to his kids' baseball game while there was a line out of his office and he'd, be like, I'm leaving. I'm going to the base, so he also set a great model for not just, the women in the company, but also the men. That family mattered. You had to have that balance. But I think the best advice I would give is, first of all, you need. Tremendous organization skills, thankfully. You, because you do, you really have to manage your time incredibly well. You have to communicate what your priorities are, make sure your team knows where you are, and now with a cell phone if you're accessible or not. And make sure your manager, who, whoever you're reporting to, knows where you are and how to reach you and make your deadline, do the work. Just do it in the way that you can.

Dorothy Dowling 33:26

There's a few threads that I hear in your story bey, but the one is really that alignment with your boss in terms of just the honesty of expectations and also the commitment to deliver. And so I just hear that thread about really being very open to those kinds of conversations. And the other is making some very deliberate decisions about your fit when you're joining an organization and clarifying. This is who I'm, so I think that's really great advice. So we're coming up to the end of our interview, Betsy, and one of the questions we always like to ask each one of our advisors is, if you could sit down with your younger self today, that ambitious woman starting out in her career, what words of encouragement or caution would you share with her?

Betsy O'Rourke 34:16

Probably number one would be, don't be afraid to share your ideas. I can't tell you the number of times I sat in meetings and I was afraid to speak up. I was like, oh, I'm the youngest person here, or the lowest on the grand for, and then, I would tell someone the idea after the meeting and then they would take credit for that idea. Going, not every time, but often, and so have the confidence. What's the worst thing that can happen? They don't like the idea, but the best thing that can happen is it's a brilliant idea. And people go, whoa, yes. And now you get recognized. So that would be my number one piece of advice is don't be afraid to speak up. Chances are you have a good idea. And it may fall, even if your idea isn't the end point, it might be the beginning point of a really great idea. So that's number one. Number two, don't let people, get, don't accept no the first time. Like it's no isn't always, no. So sometimes you have to just, if you have an idea and you really believe in it. Do the research, socialize it, talk to people, find out, do the data, make sure you really know what you're talking about because there may be a really good reason that it's not a good idea, but there may be a way to maneuver through whatever those obstacles are. And it could be a brilliant opportunity. And that's, those are the, it's like the treasure hunt that I was talking about. But, go in with your data. Make sure you know your stuff. Don't just be freelancing. Have a solid. Piece a good rationale on whatever it is you're presenting, and then get the feedback, accept the feedback, but don't necessarily accept defeat. That would be my advice.

Dorothy Dowling 36:02

I think those are both remarkable gems of wisdom that you shared, but because I do think. Having confidence and, engaging in process self talk so that you can offer something when you are maybe a more junior person in the room. And I also think that element of no is a journey because I do think it's about refining your ideas and learning how do you approach some of these things. It's a negotiation process. So again, thank you for sharing all of this. I just wanna thank you, for the rich and generous conversation, because you shared not just the milestones of your career, but the wisdom and the humanity behind them. And I know your story will resonate with so many, and it has done for me over the years Pepsi. So thank you.

Betsy O'Rourke 36:46

Thank you for your enduring friendship and this and this opportunity. It's really been fun and thank you for making it easy for me to just have a lovely chat, so I truly appreciate it. Thank you.

Dorothy Dowling 36:57

Thank you. If I may, to our audience, thank you for joining us. If today's episode resonated with you, I invite you to explore more stories@itspersonalstories.com, where you'll find conversations with remarkable leaders like Betsy across our industry, who, people who are charting both paths, building meaningful careers, and reminding us all that leadership is deeply personal. We hope to see you there. Thank you.