John Paul Nichols, CEO & President, Club Quarters interviewed by Dorothy Dowling

In a conversation filled with wisdom and experiences, Dorothy Dowling sits down with John Paul Nichols, CEO of Club Quarters, on the hospitality podcast "It's Personal Stories." Nichols takes us through his career, revealing how a strategic blend of opportunistic decisions, international exposure, and cultural diversity has paved the way for his enduring success in the industry.

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Dorothy Dowling 0:05

Hello, I'm Dorothy Dowling and welcome to its Personal Stories, a hospitality podcast focused on the journeys, lessons, and lived experiences of leaders across our industry, or a nonprofit platform committed to empowering personal success through storytelling and shared wisdom. Today I am honored to welcome John Paul Nichols, CEO of Club Quarters. John Paul, thank you for joining us. It's truly a privilege to have you with us today. I.

John Paul Nichols 0:33

My pleasure. So as you know, we worked together many years ago and it's just great to do this as a follow up.

Dorothy Dowling 0:39

Thank

John Paul Nichols 0:39

you.

Dorothy Dowling 0:40

Thank you, John. Paul, I feel the same way. So I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit about your career trajectory, because your career has touched brand development, business growth, and real estate value creation. I'm wondering if you can walk us through your professional journey and share how intentional your career mapping or purposeful decisions help shape the path you've taken.

John Paul Nichols 1:01

Sure, and I'll, and I'll try to keep it short, as you know, career, I, I've been doing this for a while now, so, uh, about 40 years. So there's a little bit of a story there, but, you know, it's, but it, I'll, I'll say some of it was opportunistic and some of it was planned. Uh, and needless to say, as I aged in my career, became more and more planned. But as many of us in the hotel business, I started as a bellman. Literally was a Belmont one day at a Hilton and Lobo key in Florida. Uh, and it just became the career that I enjoyed, very people oriented. Uh, so that was the first, you know, uh, uh, you know what I'll call exposure to it. And that's after going to college for a traditional liberal arts degree with the business focus. So it certainly wasn't a hospitality focus. Uh, and, but what attracted me to the industry broadly was the way I grew up. I grew up internationally most of my life, uh, from Wisconsin, but I grew up in Brazil and Chile and Spain. Uh, and I wanted a, a career that would eventually allow me that similar kind of exposure or being able to leverage some of that background from a very early age as I got into an older career. Now, to get there, I took a lot of lefts and it took a lot of rights. So, uh. Uh, I literally started with Howard Johnson's back when Howard Johnson owned Howard Johnsons and ran Howard Johnsons. That may date me a little bit, but, uh, uh, uh, in Florida, so to speak. Uh, but then I left, uh, frankly, and this is where I became opportunistic to, uh, effectively run an Indian reservation in Southern California and get into Indian gambling. We happen to be. The case that won the Supreme Court case, either the Seminoles and we, the Seminoles of Florida, we in California, the Capon. For whatever reason, the Supreme Court decided to hear the Capon decision or the Cabon case, and that's why Indian gaming is established the way it's did that for about 10 years. Uh, uh, and as you might imagine, the broadly speaking, gaming and hospitality are fairly related. Uh, a lot of similarities in scope. But after 10 years, you either stay in Indian country or you stay in that gaming vertical, or you wanna expose yourself to different things. I wanted to expose myself and so more of a traditional business environment. After doing that for 10 years, even though my family maintained another 15 year relationship with the tribe, and we have actually relatives that are tribal members today, the, uh, but I was hired away, uh, uh, frankly, by a developer called Mark Harris. Still a friend, one of my, my mentors, frankly, who was the first developer of Ameri Suites. So he conceptualized Ameri Suites, joined them as a VP of operations. He saw in me some guy with a strange resume, but creative, if you will. Uh, and uh, uh, and I did that for a few years based out of, uh, Austin, Texas. Uh, we sold the concept of Prime. Prime, then grew Ameri Suites. Ameri Suites, then was then sold to Hyatt. And that's Hyatt Place. So both a long journey if you'll, that just got rebranded over time. But the basic concept really started with this developer, uh, called Mark Harris. Uh, I was, uh, I was recruited away by, uh, uh, Monty Archie, Archie and Monty Bennett at Remington. To give you some perspective, and again, what interested them was somebody that was very entrepreneurial in nature, uh, uh, and had really done a lot of lateral things in the industry versus the traditional hotel vertical. Uh, you know, it was hard to be their SVP of sales and marketing of all things, even though that was not necessarily a role that I'd had in my career previously that defined, uh, we had, uh, and back then they were acquiring the RTC portfolios, and some of that was with some cash being led by. Uh, or provided by, uh, by Henry Silverman and what was then HFS in those days. And so out of the 70 or so hotels that Remington managed and probably 50 of 'em, or 45 or something, were HFS franchises. Uh, so I had a lot of interaction, as you might imagine, with the team at, uh, uh, uh, in, at, uh, inny on the HFS side before the company became Sendent. Uh, a little known fact, but the guy that ran the hotel division back in those days. Remember it was, uh, Eric Effer, uh, Eric. I hired Eric Effer as a desk clerk many years earlier in Miami. We had just remained friends all those years. Uh, and so when an opportunity developed, he actually recommended me for a particular role. Uh, and I joined what was NHFS with them became Sendent, uh, that might, that over time developed into, you know, the president of the Wing Gate ins brand. Uh, and that was kind of my reintroduction back into traditional branding and, and to some extent, hotel operations, uh, uh, became the CMO of the hotel division at, at that descendant back in those days. Uh, and then eventually went over to RCI. Primarily 'cause I wanted a lot more international exposure. I remember the domestic, our, our, our, our, the hotel division back in those days was primarily domestic with a few master licensees. Not really a lot of international exposure, maybe Canada being the one big exception. Uh, and, and RCI, on the other hand, provided me a lot of platform. Uh, I already spoke Spanish. I already spoke Portuguese, so I had a lot of flexibility in terms of how to grow. Ken May, who is another mentor of mine, you know, thinking of from that standpoint, uh, gave me an opportunity, saw something that kind of made sense, uh, uh, from an exchange standpoint, and that's what I did for the next, frankly, seven or eight years. Ascendant, maybe longer, uh, uh, which is really kind of growing all the way up to, uh, uh, running the EMA portfolio. Uh, uh, based out of London. Uh, going back to 2008, 2008 was a good thing and a bad thing, which is, I like to put it you never wanted to be a middle senior manager in 2008. Right? Uh, and so while I survived and maybe originated some of the restructures in, in ascended environment, this what I did not. Uh, and, uh, and uh, uh, and uh, the reality is I was kind of competing for. Uh, the CEO's job at RCII did not get it. You'd never wanna be the number two, maybe the three, number four. But, so anyway, it wasn't long thereafter that I had that opportunity, uh, and I had to make a decision that I wanna stay international, frankly. Uh, and I was, I had a lot of exposure in China. I used to live in Beijing, internationally as well. I used to live in Mexico City, uh, and then and order, I wanna come back to the States. Frankly, it was a personal decision ultimately. My daughter, uh, who, uh, was not with me during much of this international career, I felt that I really needed to be a little closer to home. She was an adult at that stage of the game, but there was a personal obligation. Uh, and so I moved back to the States and the opportunity developed with P Quarters where I'm still at. So I've been here since 2000, really beginning of 2009, uh, which was an interesting time to start as a CEO of a hotel company. As you might imagine. It was not exactly the best year in the industry. Uh, and I've been straight through. So, uh, uh, at this stage, I'm, you know, this is kind of as I like to put it, my, uh, my last hurrah. I'm not looking for a career beyond this one, other than doing a, well, a good job of the one that I'm in now. Uh, and that's kind of the, the career trajectory. The, uh, uh, you know, the only point that I'll make with what's interesting is, is when I kind of think back at what prepared me for the transitions that I made. Whether they be international, whether they be from hotel divisions, RCI, whether they be from Indian gaming back in the hotel industry, much of that was strategic. Uh, and I just looked at where do I had a, where did I have a competitive advantage? Maybe a little bit more lateral thinking than the typical hotelier that's very vertical in their thinking. Right? Uh uh, and whether it's on the development side, whether the operations side of the branding side. And where did I have some skill sets that were language and both cultural where I had a great sense of the culture, but I still really got public US companies, or I got private companies and, and, and had I worked for entrepreneurs that were, that, that, that were. And there's the good and the bad about entrepreneurs, right? As I like to put it right, have a very clear vision. But was I comfortable in working in those environments and would I have enough space to continue to create and motivate, grow myself? And so every step of the way, I would kind of leverage bits and pieces of that broader background. And ultimately, that may be more successful in this business, I think, than it would've been if I'd come up with traditional hospitality. Vertical gave me just a different set of eyes. Uh, a different way of looking at a same problem or opportunity, uh, in what you begin convinced of when you work and live a lot internationally is that there's plenty of ways it's getting a cat, you know, not one system is the only system, not one way, is the only way. Uh, and it's same in business frankly. There's usually more ways to grow and more ways to adapt and more ways to solve a problem than just one way. And, and it's been very helpful for me throughout my whole career.

Dorothy Dowling 10:03

Well, you know, John Paul, I've known you a long time and I have to say. Your career is even more impressive than what I knew, and I do agree with you about just the co cultural diversity of the experiences that you were able to bring into leadership roles. And then just the breadth of working across the category and the way that you did really does give you a perspective and. A way of helping people solve non-traditional problems. So when congratulations on such a remarkable career, I know that you're placed often in very challenging environments and had to produce results. And I saw when you took on Wingate, 'cause that was a new brand, obviously that had to be built from the ground up. Um, but I, I, I certainly thank all of those kinds of challenging roles that you had throughout your career. Really powered it in, in very exceptional ways. I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about Club Quarters, 'cause I'm not sure our audience would be totally familiar with them and, and what your role is like today as the CEO of this business. I.

John Paul Nichols 11:03

Uh, club Quarters been around since 1993, so it's a lot over company than most people perceive. So it's, that's a, that's a long term play in the hotel business, but the same brand as you think. It's been independent for all of his life. Uh, it was developed by a Height Networth family. It was still is the, the Bonna family. The, the entrepreneur is a guy called Ralph Bonna, who's since passed. He was also one of the co-founders of Priceline. So. Just think of 'em as a serial entrepreneur, but at a very high level. Uh, the, uh, the basic concept was originally 1993. It was hard to believe, but hardly any select service hotels in New York City or any major urban area. Right? And so the real premise was. A select service hotel to solve the problem of how could you get a reasonably priced room in New York City. That wasn't the, the big boxes, the Hilton, the she, whatever that may be, uh, because most corporates could not find that. Right. Uh, and so that's how the original hotel started in 1993. I'll come back to the, the business model in the second and the, the, the what made it interesting and still makes it interesting though, today it's. Much more of a traditional hotel model than it was back then is the, all of the marketing was B2B marketing. There was no B2C marketing whatsoever. It was never intended to grow the brand as a B2C brand. It was intended to, we call directly on JP Morgan. We'd effectively get them to commit to a block of rooms and depending on the size of the block of rooms, you had a certain rate profile in the, and so, and that's all we did, no OTA business effectively. The weekends were empty almost. Uh, but it was a very, very profitable environment. Obviously things have changed in New York City right now you've probably got 500 select service hotels in New York City. Uh, and so that business model has a adapted and changed over time, but it's vertically integrated company. We build what we operate, what we manage, what we brand. We've sold a few hotels over the years. Uh, the building company or the ownership companies? The of, that's the vehicle for the Bonner family. It's a company called Masterworks. Uh, but we manage all of Masterworks assets, if you will. Uh, and, uh, a few hotels were sold to Blackstone. A few hotels were sold to a, to an insurance company and in, uh, uh, in France. And, but generally speaking, most are still owned by the, by the parent, uh, work. It's a, it's a company that's very comfortable developing in a real estate. So we're kind of a developer centric brand. Uh, uh, today we are looking and considering growing into the third party management, which we have not historically done. Uh, and just as a way of kind of amortizing centralized costs and frankly, and not always having to put up all the equity ourselves. To date, we've been the sole source of equity. You're only gonna grow so at such a pace if you're gonna be the sole source of equity versus putting up 20% of the equity being a general partner and being able to grow on a more accelerated basis. So we're looking for ways to grow a little faster now. Uh, but we're, but we're conservative in our nature. The other thing was very, very particular in terms of the markets that we're at. The reason we have not to date, you never say never. We have not franchised with anybody else and, and don't plan on doing so in the near future is that we, our real estate is, is excellent in every market that we're in. Uh, and so think instead of having to pay a franchise brand, uh, we effectively pay a lot of money for the real estate in the first place or for the land in the first place, in the quality of that location of these urban markets generally don't require a franchise to support that. The business model was able to support that. Obviously things change. You always look at things and who knows what that model is gonna look like 15 years from now. And the big change, frankly, is distribution, as we know in the industry, is totally different now than it was 10 years ago than it was 20 years ago than it was 30 years ago. It's gonna be totally different 10 years from now. And that more than anything else. Causes change in business models, much less so, real estate changes and things of that nature. So, uh, uh, so today we are, you know, we're, we're high margin profitable businesses, never used any, any, any, uh, uh, uh, any really third party branding. Uh, never used any third party managers. So truly kind of a one story fits all. We are in the process of kind of tiering some of our hotels and tiering feature development, where we've got what I call a quiet luxury kind of product. That Brian Park right now has been very successful. We've got a couple projects under development very similar to that. Uh, that's obviously, you know. Uh, not a Dorchester as a qual quality, but an end, a quality, luxury product from that standpoint. Uh, we have a series of hotels that we are looking to maybe convert to Webster, which is a in-house, uh, uh, a lifestyle brand. They're just the bones of those hotels and the particular location would make sense. Then obviously we have traditional club quarters, which continues to produce, and we're looking at developing those as well. Different pieces of land, different pieces of dirt, different locations lend themselves better to any one of those three. So we don't just have one brand that we're trying to grow going forward.

Dorothy Dowling 16:13

Well, um, thank you for that. And I, I do think understanding sort of that developer led. Mindset and the real estate part of the business, um, is important for everyone to understand because I still think regardless of what segment people work in the industry, understanding how those pieces, um, come together is really important.

John Paul Nichols 16:32

Well, it, it also drives how you think as a company, uh, the, you know, uh, uh, I don't think I've asked once, what's our fee income? Mm-hmm. It's just not relevant. What matters to me is what's our ebitda. That's true in every asset, and that's true whether we manage it for our own account, whether meaning that it's owned by the, by us, or whether it's for a third party because sold it the same basic premise in the end. We know that what makes an owner happy is that the fees they pay me is the EBITDA that we deliver to the owner regardless of the owner. So the company's very focused on that, and it's just the nature of our DNA in the fact that we stay and own the majority of the hotels. It's just our, it's built in, right? So we don't cheat one versus the other. Uh, in our lesson learned is that this goes back to the whole old company owned store, pro you know, model, which is you always wanna favor. The hotel you don't own versus the hotel you do own. That's the only way I know to make sure that third party owners are happy versus if you happen to own hotels in the same city especially, right? Mm-hmm. And that's very much in our DNA as well, so,

Dorothy Dowling 17:35

yeah. Well, very, very good advice. I know you've talked a lot about sort of the cultural evolution in terms of your career, but I'm wondering if you can speak about when you're approaching a new market, or you're faced with a very difficult business challenge, how do you approach problem solving and. Has that approach changed over the years as your experience has grown?

John Paul Nichols 17:57

I'll kind of answer from a market standpoint. 'cause problem solving a market may be related, but they can be very different. Certainly from a market standpoint. We're strong believers in data. We're strong believers in history and we're strong believers in doing some good research in terms of changes that you anticipate in the market, whether they be real estate oriented industries, those can be positives and negatives, right? Because if you're a developer and you're, and you're heavily invested in real estate, it's a long term play. It's not a one or two year play, so you need to have a a little sense of continuity. While we certainly analyze every business on a five year basis. We've only sold, you know, we only sold some hotels in 2006. We some hotels. Hotels in 2016. We don't sell very often. It's kind of what I'm getting at. So we're long-term holders, generally speaking, but we wanna make sure that financially there's a good enough return prior to an investment, obviously. So, one, data, two, return, three. How do you differentiate yourself? With a customer base. 'cause a commodity product today is gonna average like everybody else in the market. So if you wanna outperform, you either have to niche yourself, which is, we've always tried to do with a business customer approach historically, or if you're gonna be a lifestyle hotel, you gotta approach yourself with a particular consumer, a little more experiential and, and so, because if you don't have a point of difference in this business, you're gonna average like everybody else does. And there's no real. Premium return versus you versus somebody else. Uh, nor can you really, I think, drive results or expect to drive results that are different, uh, uh, than everybody else. In other words, doing a hundred percent market share is not a win. 110% market share is a win, so to speak, is what I'm getting. The extra 10% is usually a differentiated product, a better location, and at times better management, right? So, uh, the, the other thing I think that certainly. I think the quality of the teams, whether you're on the development side or you're whether on the problem solving side, and I come back to that, is critical talent solves issues. Brains, your team solves issues. Uh, and so the quality of the people you surround yourself with, and especially complimentary people, not people just like you, but in fact that end up making the whole, you know, better than the sum of the parts, so to speak, I think is the difference between the great companies. And I aspire to be a great company. I'm not gonna take credit for that yet, but my point that, but that is, I think the difference between those and the ones that are average, right? And uh, which, strike me all the way back to problem solving. Now, first of all, you gotta look at problem solving as an opportunity, right? Some people I. It's like a problem solving, solving the great, that great stress. I don't, I love challenges. That's what motivates me about this business. I like the fact that our customers are all different. I like the fact that our markets are all different, uh, and that's what makes it stimulating for me. I like the cultures that are different, and that's a, a motivator. And if you're motivated, that's number one in terms of problem solving. Number two, surround yourself with the same comment. I made. Smart people find opportunities. Smart people solve problems. Don't assume your answer is the right answer. That's usually the wrong answer. More often than not, right? Uh, uh, uh, delegate well to have talent, but don't abdicate. You know, there is a difference between, uh, you know, the trust is earned, so to speak. Uh, uh, uh, but you have to be willing to let people earn it, right? You can't control over control, otherwise you lose the very talent that, that I'm talking about. Uh, and last but not least, uh, I go back to the comment about make sure that whatever your solution is. Is is the most cost effective one? And I say that because in the end, cost matters, right? And I don't mean cheap, but we have a process that we call that we say Club quarter rising. Some people might say that means finding cheap. No, it's the opposite. We just try to find the most efficient and effective way of delivering, whether it's a revenue management issue, whether it's a. Development issue, whether it's an employee issue, you know, how do you staff appropriately? Kios is a good example. Uh, you know, KIOS and Wingate in club quarter, just coincidentally introduced kiosk in the same year. I'm talking about 20 some odd years ago, right? Tell they're everywhere, right? And, but the premise was about how do we provide better service, but cut costs, it was engineered. So it's so really being able to kind of break a problem or a solution. In its parts and then look at its parts and then cobble it back together in a way, the consumer or the employee. And if it's a double and if it's both of those and it's a home run, really see some value out of it, uh, uh, is, is the key to club quarters. And frankly, it's the key to, I think, uh, to a good business methodology. And really it's foundational almost within everything we do here.

Dorothy Dowling 22:44

Well, I think you've offered a lot of very impactful wisdom. Uh, you know, I wrote down a lot of things that you had said, John Paul, but I do think that element of talent, I think we're all on a quest today to find good talent. I think it's, it's a challenge in terms of surrounding ourselves and, and really driving the growth of those individuals. I do love your, um, statement about don't advocate but delegate, because I do think that's really important from a leader's point of view to make sure you drive the accountability. But what I really loved was that whole element of the efficiency mindset and trying to find, I. The most effective way to drive the right kind of commercial outcome. And I'm certain that is what has powered your career in the way it has in terms of the kind of value creation you could deliver to shareholders and real estate investors and the kind of, uh, stakeholders that you're working with today. Because I do think that's really important for us. 'cause there are an awful lot of options out there. But us really thinking about how to get the best results at the most cost effective way, I think is critically important. I'm wondering if we could talk a little bit about mentorship and people that might have influenced your journey, and if you could offer any thoughts in terms of how they shaped your leadership.

John Paul Nichols 24:02

You know. Think, uh, you, you're kind enough to provide me with that question. I had to think about that because especially as you think through over 40 years is natural sometimes to gravitate to the last five years. Right. But I wanted to start with my dad and you know, and what my dad gave me, and obviously my mom was equally instructive, so I don't. But, uh, but my dad taught me to risk. I'm not saying that Dad always took the right risk, that's a different story, but he taught me that risk was okay. And that really has really is what drove a lot of my decisions to travel internationally or try something different, because if you don't try, you never experience, I can't say it any other way, uh, in, in a way that was reasonably thoughtful. I mean, it's not willy nilly, but that. That, that one element has served me my whole life, to be honest with you. And, and it's, uh, uh, there was another guy early on who was, uh, an investor back in the early Indian days. Remember before the, the bill, before the law, the, the law was passed. This was the wild west of business I used to call it, right? But the guy called Al Perman, who was a drugstore owner in DC and was just an investor. So he taught me the, he taught me the elements of how to be an entrepreneur. And that was very, very important early on, because prior to that, my work experience had been with Howard Johnson's parent company. I don't say that's necessarily, I was gonna learn how to be an entrepreneur, right? So because it was that entrepreneurialship or that ability to bring that into every other career move thereafter, when I went back into the hotel or the hosp, the broader hospitality industry, very useful. I mentioned, uh uh, Mark Harris, who was the guy that conceptualized and Ameri. Because he taught me to take a, not look at a resume based on, look, they have experience in hotels, but a resume can tell a lot of story about talent. And he saw in me somebody that was creative, a little bit of a risk taker. Somebody was successful in a variety of different environments. So I said, you know what? I'm sure he'll be successful with me. And it was a lesson that I've taken as I've considered others and other people that I've hired over the many, many years. Uh uh, and it gave me a chance and I assuming that was something you. Uh, you know, I I, I'm gonna mention Eric Effer when we both know, uh, because Eric, well, you know, it just says two things. First of all, it's a small industry. Two, the relations reformed 30 years earlier are gonna be that they're still gonna be there 30 years later, right? Uh, and, and so somebody that worked for me, even much, much younger, eventually gave me another opportunity many, many years later within ascendant itself, right? So, so, uh, uh, uh, I, I'm gonna mention a guy called Kirk Postman. Who, who was very relationship, but he taught me not all the elements. I'm certainly not perfect at this, but he taught me a lot about the polish necessary in a public company environment and how to deal with that level of skillset and that level of communication, which is not something I'd really had prior. So that's again, something I've been able to mature and use many times over since then. And Recommunicate, uh, and, uh, uh, unless, but not least, uh, I, I. I wanna mention the two guys that, that in the company I'm in now, Ralph Bonna, who's pastor, as I mentioned, the entrepreneur that hired me here. Uh, he's certainly, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the aspect of, kind of really think about engineering a brand and really looking at a brand from scratch and, and differentiating was very much his mantra. Uh, uh, and, uh, and the person that, that frankly replaced Ralph, uh, uh, a guy called Bill Lovejoy, who runs master worship development company, who he and I really partner together, but he has really taught me a significant amount about financial acumen, uh, what I'll call the development process over the years as we've built hotels here, especially in a club quarters environment. The funding and financing of such the lending process, all of which were maybe not what the skill sets that I was learning in ascended environment, which is much more branding oriented or in a prior operations environment, or certainly in the Indian gaming environment. That wasn't in the early stages. That wasn't it at all. Right? Uh uh So it's really different mentors. Help me grow at different stages of, of, of, of my, of, of my career. Uh, and you just learn different things from different folks. If you, you know, listen, the thing I love about this business and why I'm still working, to be honest with you, uh, because my sense is neither you or I probably still need to work, uh, is I'm having fun and I have fun because I'm still learning every day. The day I'm doing the same old, same old, it's the same job, and I've been doing this for whatever number of years is the day I should retire. But today. I'm still motivated and I really do learn everything every day because the industry changes. It morphs, the markets are different. I mean, Germany's different than England and England's different, the London's different than Manchester, you name it. Right? So in a, in, in developing, in all those environments, but how to be successful in all those environments, I'm using those as just proxies. All of that are, are learning experiences. Right. And, uh, and, and that's really the, the, the, the best part of the industry from my point.

Dorothy Dowling 29:10

Well, again, a lot in terms of what you offer to the audience, and I do think this thread of being a lifelong learner is what we see with a lot of highly successful people, John Paul. 'cause it's you embrace every opportunity. But I do think as you talk about your career development and I. How your dad, um, really gave you permission to take measured risks and really opened up those kinds of things. The thread of relationships and really understanding how they power careers throughout our, our life journey. Um, the skill versus experience, which is a big conversation today as we start to look at talent recognized. Not everybody has a lived experience, but perhaps the skills that they've acquired along the way can allow them to be successful in environments. That whole concept of. Entrepreneurship and, and really, uh, what that means. And then the polish, because I certainly agree with you in the public market environment, there is an expectation about how you represent yourself and how you represent your company. And then I do think about this, this last stage of your career where you've learned so much about the real estate business, the lending, the underwriting, and all of those kinds of pragmatic elements associated with the business. I mean, you've had a remarkable career. You have so much to share with so many of us, and I thank you for unpacking all of that learning journey and how some of these folks really helped you in terms of really driving some of your success. I. I'm wondering if we Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

John Paul Nichols 30:40

I just wanted to make one comment, and this may be not the right place, but just kind of thinking through, it's always important I think, sometimes to look back and say, what would I have done differently, right? Mm-hmm. And, and the one thing I definitely would've done differently knowing what I value today, maybe what I didn't value enough. That is my work life balance today is much better than it used to be. And, and so ambition's a very good thing. But too much ambition has a downside. Right? And so as I work with people today, uh, including very ambitious executives, my message to them is, is. That's, there's a lot of good to learn by being a, but, but it's also much more important to make sure your family's equally important. Your spouse, your, your whatever, your partner, whatever the is equally important, right? And because in the end, you're not gonna take your job at the end, you're gonna take the rest of it with you, your family, et cetera. So, uh, if I were to do something a little differently and I wouldn't necessarily have been any less successful if I did this differently, what I would've. I would've taken better time to better balance some of the constituencies that I had. It was really more the personal constituencies that I should have better balanced. And yeah, I say that, um, any young, ambitious man or woman today, frankly, because it's a, it's a long career, uh uh, and, but you got one family, right? And so that family in the end is probably the most important one. Either the one you came from or the one you're gonna create. One important. So. Uh, I do think about that periodically and, uh, and, uh, uh, uh, and certainly looking at your daughter who's now 40 years old, right? If you will, uh, uh, once in a while. She's very good at reminding me of that, which is great. That's what, that's what, that's what somebody that's sometimes successful or ambitious needs. Right? Because we, uh, it's important that we don't believe our own stories, but we, because there's, in the end, everybody. It's part of your story. So

Dorothy Dowling 32:35

yeah, no, I think that's really well said, and I think that's a very important message today because I think as an employer, employee balance is continuing to shift. I think people protecting, I. Their mental wellbeing and their health, uh, is, is an important consideration. That's all part of how I think we bring great leadership to the workplace too. John Paul, I, I'm just wondering, you are such a polished speaker. Um, I just love listening to you 'cause you're so eloquent. I'm just wondering if you can share with our audience how you prepare, uh, to deliver your messages so powerfully.

John Paul Nichols 33:09

You know, first of all, experience helps. I've got a little gray hair, believe I'm actually. Uh, and, and so I realized early on that I had to develop certain skill sets, you know, so one, I I actually practiced. I know it's hard to believe, but you have to practice public speaking. You have to expose yourself. You have to sit up and speak in front of 2000 people, and even as scared as you may be, and that first time's gonna be not as good as the last time, right? But, but practice does make perfect. So there is an element of that. Two, I might, if you, the more preparation you do on a subject matter. And obviously I'm pretty prepared when it comes to talking about myself. That's one thing, but whatever the subject matter is, right? It could be markets, it could be opportunities, it could be where to develop. It could be how to grow as a human being, whatever your culture is. So preparation, uh, and the more you prep, prepare, and practice, the better you're gonna be able to deliver that message. Last but not least, I think it's very, very important to whatever you're saying, that you actually believe in it. Because if you believe in it, you're gonna be authentic and delivery. Everybody's gonna have a different style, right? But, but the authenticity comes from your, in your core, you believe the messes that you're delivering, right? Uh, and, and I tend to very much do that as opposed to deliver messages that I don't believe it because there's, there's a time and a place to do that, but I'd rather have somebody else deliver that message. They're gonna be more authentic than I'm, if that makes a difference. So I think that's part of it. Now, it's interesting, I was send it, uh, you know, gave me an opportunity once to go, uh, to a, you know, kind of a senior executive training environment. Uh, and one of the things they did was film. You know, something like this, and they showed you how you reacted and the whole idea was to see how you presented and how believable were you. And the lesson that I learned and, and I was very polished and I had my nice suit on. I looked very corporate, but I was too polished. And what came across to me when I looked at it as a, as a kind of an observer now, but more importantly to the, to the, to the audience, which were the peers that were participating in this, the same conference or training conference. Is that the, it goes back to that word authenticity, which I know is overused a little bit, but too much of a polish causes you also to lose credibility. It's kind, it was a funny comment and I, and I, and so to me, I, I, that preparation needs to be, um, how can I say this? It needs to be to a point that you're not, I mean, I'll never read from slides. I just don't, I'll have a few slides up there, but it's always to be able to speak to the subject matter that the slide's outlining. Because it's not the slide, it's you that people are buying into. It's whatever you are saying that people are buying into. Right? Uh, if it was just a slide, I could just email the slide to everybody else. And so the lesson learned, learned was don't over practice and just be knowledgeable and if you're knowledge will be comfortable in your own set and you're, you know, you're gonna be able to answer whatever questions come your way. Uh, uh, or last but not least. The other thing I learned is if you don't know the answer, just say you don't know the answer and you'll get back to them. It's as simple as that.

Dorothy Dowling 36:21

Well, again, I think that is very sage. Um. And thoughtful, uh, elements silly with our audience. 'cause I've always believed, like you, John Paul, the practice and, uh, putting the time in to, you know, really cultivate your thoughts in advance. But I do think that element of being true to yourself and making sure that the message that you're delivering is a very credible one because it's something you believe in, is an important thing for us all to keep in mind. You know, we're coming up near the end of the interview, John Paul, and you've offered so much to the audience, and I know you spoke about if you were to go back and give yourself some younger advice, but I'm just wondering, based on the kind of career that you've had, I. If we were thinking about some of the emerging leaders that, um, listen to this podcast or webcast, if there's anything else that you would offer to them personally or professionally that might resonate with them as they're starting their career early in their career.

John Paul Nichols 37:19

Uh, I'll make two comments. Uh, uh, one is it's a long career, uh, so don't assume that you know what you know. And that you're gonna be comfortable with that. So expose, if you may, like the industry, which is fine. You don't necessarily get brought up, but expose yourself to different aspects of the industry. First of all, you're gonna learn something along the way. You're gonna find out that maybe you like doing left instead of doing right. Uh, but more importantly, you're gonna learn to respect everybody else in the industry. 'cause every part of the industry is, is critical for us to see successful as a whole. I don't care if it's a floor attendant all the way to the banker that's lending you the money. All one without the other doesn't work. It's as simple as that. So that's, that's one. I think international exposure in today's environment, maybe not as much as I was, is pretty critical. Most large hotel companies and hotel companies are getting larger, distribution companies are getting larger, not smaller, all have significant global components. The industry is a much smaller industry than you think from a global standpoint. So allowing yourself, especially early on. Which is where the time you wanna get international exposure is, will help your career. A lot of people get nervous about that thinking, I'm gonna be out of the, the limelight. But realistically, you're like not likely to become a very senior executive unless in today's environment you've also had some international exposure as well as domestic exposure. Uh, that's two. Number three, uh, and I was never promoted because I did my day job, not once. It was always because I raised my hand and said, I want participate in that project. So raising your hand and being willing to do something different, first of all, it's a learning experience, but number two, that's when you're gonna get noticed. You're gonna get noticed because you did something outside the norm, not the norm. And so, uh, it is being willing to do that again. Take a risk. Go back to that comment, right? That served me my whole life because that's how I got noticed. 'cause if you're not noticed, it's, it's a real risk. Listen, that's a. Potential challenge with kind of the Zoom culture we have now, especially if you're younger, you haven't gotten noticed yet. It's harder to get noticed in that environment than if you're working in a team environment. You're, you know, you, you just kind of stand out that a senior executive that you're presenting to as part of a team, whatever that may be, right? But those really are the, the, the, what I would say to any young manager, young, uh, or somebody kind of joining the industry as they kind of, uh, uh, go for it. This last, but not least, I know this, most everybody says this, but. You know, not everybody is gonna be wanna, not everybody wants to be the CEO, even if they could be the CEO. There's every component part of our business is valuable. If you want to be a floor attendant, just be the best floor attendant. If you wanna be a bellman, be the best beman you wanna be, a CEO, be the best CEO. It's about taking pride in the particular thing you're doing in us, frankly, taking pride in the people that are doing it.

Dorothy Dowling 40:12

Yeah. Well, again, I think just the human quality of your leadership there, John Paul, and recognizing, you know, the, the breadth of talent that is part of our industry, and then giving people that advice in terms of making some of those. Uh, risks. Taking those risks and making those investments early in their career will pay dividends, uh, later in their career. I think it's extraordinarily well said. And I, I just would like to thank you for offering so much, uh, to our audience today. I think you've given everybody some very thoughtful considerations as they work through their career. And if I may, um, I would like to just remind everyone that and thank them that if you've enjoyed this episode, listening to John Paul and all of his wisdom. I hope you come and visit us@itspersonalstories.com for more wisdom from hospitality leaders across the globe. So I hope to see you there. John Paul, thank you again for being such an important part of our show today,

John Paul Nichols 41:09

Dorothy. Thank you. I enjoyed it and I'm happy to do this again. And listen, if we, I, I look forward to seeing NYU, so I'll send you a separate email. I hope it'll fight some time.

Dorothy Dowling 41:16

Thank you.

John Paul Nichols 41:17

Thank you.