It's Personal Stories, A Hospitality Podcast

Liam Brown, Group President, US & Canada, Marriott International, Interviewed by Rachel Humphrey

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Liam shares his journey from the dining car on the railway to 35 years with Marriott. He discusses the importance of reading, being curious, and preparing for public speaking. He talks about his leadership evolution, how he develops new skills, and what he looks for in building great teams, plus his involvement in associations and his advice to his younger self.



Rachel Humphrey:

I am Rachel Humphrey, interview host with its personal Stories of Hospitality podcast. We are a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering personal success in the hospitality industry, and I am super excited today to be joined by Liam Brown of Marriott International. Liam, welcome to the podcast.

Liam Brown:

Well, thank you very much, Rachel. Thank you very much for having me on.

Rachel Humphrey:

Liam, I wanna jump right in'cause we're only gonna have a little bit of time together today. But one of the incredible things about the hospitality industry, as you know, is that every leader can have a different path to leadership at, which is very unique to them. So tell us a little bit about you, your journey, and how you ended up where you are today with Marriott. Yeah.

Liam Brown:

Well, I always think in hospitality, oftentimes a lot of people can end up in hospitality more by accident than by design. So I was born in Dublin, grew up in Dublin, and uh, you know, when I was a a teenager, my father got me a job on the Irish railroad system working on the dining cars. And at that time there was a loss of, uh, that if you think Mike actually. Many, many years ago, railway companies oftentimes owned a lot of hotels. Canadian Pacific began that way, but there was a chain of hotels in Ireland called Great Southern Hotels. And uh, I remember one year I, um, I. Uh, I was, uh, volunteered to go to a very, very high end restaurant in Don Leary that was run by great Southern hotels. And, uh, I've worked for a remarkable man there. The maitre d there, Barney Nicholson, who was a, a, a great guy and I would say I characterize him as a fellow who gave me a lot of, uh. Advice in terms of, uh, what I should do. I mean, I thought, oh, he said to me one time, what do you wanna do? I said, oh, I'd love your job, Barney, because he was the master of all he surveyed and. Uh, guests as they were going out would shake his hand and, you know, there was a, you know, there was a tip exchange there, and I thought he was the Bess knees in the cats pajamas in terms of, uh, uh, just a great, just a great, uh, a great guy to work for. He was tough and, uh, challenging, but it was always very clear what you needed to do. But anyway, he asked me one day, he said that, what do you wanna do with your life, Liam? And I said, I want your job, Barney. And he said, ah. He said, you know, I left school at 12 years of age. He said, I've exceeded all my expectations in life. He said, you need to make sure you finish college. I'm going to hotel management. Uh, he said, I think you do very well there. I. Uh, and at the time I was contemplating being a teacher, uh, and various other, other, other career choices. And, uh, but I decided, went to, uh, I, I went to hospitality school. I got a business degree and a hospitality degree, and kind of the rest is a little bit of history. I worked in many, many, many different jobs, uh, mo all in for the, even though I still characterize myself today as an operator. Uh, I think, uh, most people would say somebody who's been in corporate as long as I have been, is no longer an operator. But, uh, that's where my heart lies. I have a deep empathy for the people who do the work each and every day of our business. But, uh, yeah, for the first, uh, well. Many years of my career, I was involved in running hotels, restaurants, and uh, all that sort of good stuff. And I was, uh, very fortunate to, uh, get to the United States. And I worked for a small New England hotel company, uh, that, that only had five hotels and that was bought by Marriott. And that's how I ended up working for Marus in, uh, 1990. So I'm, uh, 35 years with Marriott this year. Actually 36,'cause I started working in Appleton Ends in 1989 and they grandfathered my time so.

Rachel Humphrey:

Well that's incredible how one person can see something in you and have such a pivotal role in shaping how things play out for you. Um, something, you know, we hear frequently, certainly the length of time you've been at Marriott is a standout. One of the interesting things that I have really taken away from this podcast the last couple years is how many industry leaders really credit their own curiosity for a lot of their career path, whether it was learning new aspects of the business, meeting new people. Is that something you would describe yourself as innately curious? And as a follow up to that, I wanna ask you, tell me something you're curious about today, and it can be hospitality related or not.

Liam Brown:

Yeah. Well, I think, look, uh, anybody, uh, I mean, if you want to be, uh, if you want to advance yourself in life, I think curiosity is a key skill to have. You gotta be curious and you gotta cultivate it. And I think, uh, that I, I think, I honestly believe that began with my mother and father. Uh, my father was an avid reader and, uh. And, and always encouraged us to read books. So I think, you know, reading and, uh, even when I was, when I was a regional mayor, I used to always challenge my general managers as to what was the last book that they had read. I'd always encourage people to read a particular book that, uh, that, that I had found interesting. And they don't all, they don't all have to be leadership or business books. They can be any kind, anything that stretches the mind. I mean, you gotta continue to stretch your mind and that's. That curiosity keeps your mind nimble. It keeps your, it keeps your, it keeps developing the various skill sets that you have. And I, I think there's also a very much a, uh. A serendipitous nature to it, that reading something a couple of weeks ago and you kind of have an opportunity to act on it. Uh, I remember being in sale. I used to read the Wall Street Journal every day, and I remember reading an article about, uh, um, A BB Asab Brown Bavaria. It was the GM of the Courtyard in Hartford. And I had been trying to get this piece of sales business outta this guy in a, b, b, forever and ever. Anyway, I had a final meeting with the guy and uh, and I said, Hey, I saw that A, BB just recently signed a deal to develop a power plant in Ulaa tour in Mongolia. And the guy looks at me, he says, oh, he says, you read that? He said, that was my deal. And I was saying to myself, I know I'm in. And, uh, you know, and I got, and, and, and I think it, well, I think we'd done a lot of work to try and get the business and everything, but it was the one thing that got us over the hump. And it was just one thing that I'd read a week before I. And it had stuck in my mind. And as you read the paper, whether it whatever, or periodicals or magazines or books, you, you find a, a piece of information that is inevitably of use to you at someplace, uh, someplace down the road in terms of what you do. So I think, uh, curiosity is also continuing to invest in yourself. Because the very act of being curious is trying to understand things, understand situations, understand challenges and opportunities and how to navigate through them. And then I would say the one thing I'm really interested in, in trying to figure out is AI and the implications it have for has for our business in terms of, we have always strived for this high tech and high touch. And is, is this the, is this the, uh, the thing that might enable all of that in a very, very meaningful way so that we can better understand our customers and, uh, and, and our associates and every, uh, and, and figure out what. How, how do we give our guests what they want, when they want, and how they want us?

Rachel Humphrey:

Well, I think a lot of people are curious about AI for sure, and love the topic of reading, whether it is leadership style or not. Which begs the question of what is the most recent book you've read?

Liam Brown:

Oh, most recent book I, uh, I read is, um, oh, what's the name? It's, it's by that, uh, the guy who, uh, he's at Noah. Uh, ha, Hariri, he, it, it's all, it's actually all about AI and how, you know, the implications of, he conjures up all sorts of, uh, bad scenarios and, and, uh, and, uh, and challenging it, it could potentially go the wrong way, but it also could potentially go the right. Way. Um, and he, he is a, he is a great writer. I mean, he speaks of the history of the human race as really being one of storytelling and that, uh, you know, the ability for seven people to live on a planet together. And, uh, uh, he talks about the fact that, uh, you know, we share 99% of our DNA with the Bonobo monkey and, but once they get to a, uh, a, a band of more than 50, uh, the society breaks down. But we have the ability to have 7 billion or so living on the planet, and we're, for the most part, able to live and work together. And a lot of it is just storytelling. And it is storytelling that binds us all together. And storytelling I always think is an incredible part of culture. And, uh, and, and this book talks about, you know, the dangers with AI and culture and, and, and, uh, and, and the promise of it all as well too. But I shall, I shall, I shall get the proper name and the author and, and email it to you so you can add it as a, as a subtext to the podcast.

Rachel Humphrey:

Definitely can do. You know, storytelling is actually an interesting segue, um, because public speaking can be, for some people an incredible, um. Incredibly important part of their path to leadership, but for some people, very debilitating and one of the biggest hurdles. You do a lot of public speaking. I've been fortunate enough to source you many times for different stages. Talk about a little bit about your public speaking journey. Is it something you're comfortable with today? Has that always been the case? How do you prepare? What are the, what are the Liam's secrets on public speaking?

Liam Brown:

I think I'm, I, I think I'm, I'm reasonably comfortable with it today, but in the early days, oh my God, it terrified, terrified me. I remember reading a, a, a, a a piece on public speaking that said, some people fee fear public speaking more than they fear death.

Rachel Humphrey:

I've heard that.

Liam Brown:

And, uh, and uh, and the first, uh, I, one of the first big ones I did was a residence in GMs conference where I was the, you know, kind of the host, the mc, and. All that kind of stuff. And, uh, oh my God, I was very nervous. And, uh, part of it was just, uh, timing, reading the audience. I started speaking before they'd stopped, uh, you know, applauding and, um. Yeah, it was, uh, it, I, I felt I did a terrible job. Uh, but how does one prepare? I mean, I, I, I think preparation is everything. You gotta know what your message is, know what your story is, and, and, you know, you, I, I've been through many it, I, I'm a great believer in go. Take a public speaking class where they videotape you and give you the feedback. Uh, one of the, one of the best piece of advice I ever got was listen to even just listen to the radio and listen to how a commentator speaks and how there's cadence in the voice. There's, uh, there's, uh, an an up and down or a sing song to the conversation. There's a way of speaking that, that, that, uh, that, that. That should resonate or that gets your message across. But the most important thing is to be prepared. Know your material. Know what the message is. There's all the things about primacy and recency. Start. Tell'em what you're going to tell'em, then tell'em and tell'em what you told them. Uh, so I think preparation is the key and you just gotta relax and be comfortable. There's a few little things you can do, you know, behind stage where you, you know, kind of get the tension outta your body and you take a few deep breaths. And, uh, be confident that you've done the preparation and then just go and do it. And I have found that where, you know, where I have, uh, you know, feel I have done a very poor job is oftentimes in you can, in, in maybe not doing that little extra bit of preparation, you can never over prepare. I think you just gotta get very, very comfortable with your. Material and your message, and know your audience as well, too. Very important to know your audience. Who am I talking to? Am I talking to, uh, you know, the g our general managers, you know, you, you gotta know what they want to hear as well.

Rachel Humphrey:

That's so great. Such great advice. You actually have a couple of things in common with me. I also believe there's no such thing as over preparation and a little bit of breath work before I step on stage has actually made a huge difference for me. Just kind of calming those nerves a little bit. That I can think a little bit more clearly, but great advice in there.

Liam Brown:

One other piece of advice I got too says always remember the audience wants you to succeed.

Rachel Humphrey:

That's fair.

Liam Brown:

You, and you think, oh my God, I make a fool of myself. But they, they forgive you a lot. They want you to succeed.

Rachel Humphrey:

And if you do make a fool of yourself, you get up the next day and you do it again, and no one will remember it. So, absolutely. Um, I do wanna turn for a second to, you have always, or at least since I have known you've been incredibly involved with associations, nonprofits, other things. I know you're the, um. On the board, the executive committee for HLA, you've been very involved with a oa in addition to giving back and building relationships. What are some of the ways that your involvement with some of these organizations outside of Marriott have helped to grow your leadership skills or maybe something you learned in these roles that's different from what you learn in your, um, everyday role?

Liam Brown:

Uh, well, I always think it's a great opportunity to spend time with, uh, people who are across our business, or maybe not even necessarily directly across our business, not necessarily in the hotel business, but in other aspects of our business, other aspects of hospitality, service, transportation, and I think that look. Every, per every person you meet is an opportunity to, uh, learn, uh, ask them great questions about how do they get to where they, they, what are their ideas, thoughts, and solutions about some of the challenges that we might be facing. I always find that the rooms, the room is full of different, uh, uh, different people with different perspectives and, and I think the ability to be able to tap into. Those various conversations, those various perspectives is very helpful to me. I mean, I always come out feeling very, uh, at least better informed and better educated than I was before. Uh, I think the ability to work across, I. Uh, competitors and, and various other disciplines from a broader, more, you know, legal, political, uh, kind of, uh, you know, trying to shape a broader narrative for either our industry or for the, uh, country is a really good thing to do. Um. Yeah, I find I, I, I mean, I, I, I think personally they're great ways to get, uh, uh, to get some self-development and some growth, and you learn something and you have the ability then to partner with people who, at some stage you never know. You never know when you might need to reach out and ask for advice or counsel on a particular issue that they have an area of expertise in.

Rachel Humphrey:

Hmm. That's some great advice. No, that's true. And I like the idea too, of obviously being in a room with different people with different perspectives, but different parts of the industry, different aspects of things to then bring that back with you. I wanna stick to that idea you just said about developing and, and your personal growth as well as you transitioned, whether it be from. Um, on property to the corporate side, or maybe from one role to another, it might have become evident that there were skills that you would need to be successful that you either hadn't learned in school or you hadn't learned in the role before that. Um, can you gimme an example of maybe something that you knew early on would be some, would be an important skill for you? In whatever role you were gonna tackle next, and how you set about to develop it?

Liam Brown:

Uh, I think what, uh, and a, a good example I think is, uh, my own sense of financial acumen in terms of, we know what a, at a, in a hotel operations you should, you do know, uh, you know, from a p and l perspective, what, uh. The, the key financial metrics are how to drive success, but oftentimes, uh, you know, the, the financial underpinning of the hotel itself and real estate financing is something that you as an operator, you potentially have a little bit of a gap with. So I always felt from a, from a big, broad financial perspective, that that was a, a factor that I needed to work on and, and, and, and develop. So about 25 years ago. I went, I went to the University of Maryland and I did an MBAA part-time MBA. And so I had a full-time job and every other week I was Friday, I thought Friday, Saturday and Sunday I spent over the Smith School of Business. And the first 30 days I thought it was going to kill me because it was so hard, just in terms of I hadn't been in a, in a, in a classroom in many, many, many years. And you still had a day job and all that sort of good stuff, but it's amazing what you can, uh, what you can get used to and how you can rise the occasion. But I thought it was one of the best things I ever did. And again, it was a piece of, there was a whole range of people there. Not in the hospitality bill, a couple of people in the hospitality, but a lot of people all doing either defense work. Lawyers, uh, technology and just the, the, uh, engagement with them, uh, on, on business, how they thought about business, uh, was a. Remarkable gift to me. I really, really enjoyed that and, uh, and I feel it, uh, it also helped me from a career perspective, and that goes back again to the notion of curiosity and always being, every day you should be trying to learn something and figure out something new or understand something in a, in a more meaningful. Full way. But that's one example of where I felt, I always felt I had a little bit of a deficiency in terms of any kind of sophisticated financial transactions, as you might call them, a little, you know, more than just AP and l or a regional rollup of properties, but just the financial in underpinning of, of our business and, uh. And how from a real estate perspective, uh, how our owners make money and how the company, how Marriott International makes money. And having a clear understanding of that, I think is very helpful.

Rachel Humphrey:

Isn't it interesting how you went for the financial acumen, but then you also took out of it how much you could get used to when you started this new routine of both the corporate world and going back to school or what you could learn from others who had such different. Um, career backgrounds or career experiences than you were having. So going into the opportunity for one thing, but really getting so much more out of it through the experience. Um, I wanna stick with the idea of continuing to, to grow and evolve and talk a little bit about your personal leadership evolution, um, from a couple of different standpoints. Uh, I hear a lot that there are, that people say, Hey, I can notice in my. Self, some things that have gotten better over time in my leadership and maybe some things that are not getting better over time or that are even getting worse over time. Can you think of something in your own journey that has either gotten better over time or something that you're working on that you're still trying to get there?

Liam Brown:

Yeah, that's a, uh, I was, I, I was dwelling on that question a little bit. And, and, and I, I, I would venture to say that I, I always believe my leadership style always continues to need, uh, work. Uh, one of, I, I think one of my challenges that I've never mastered is, uh, that, um. Uh, not get, uh, uh, I don't wanna, this sounds like a little strange that like, not getting involved in the details, not undermining my folks, right? Mm-hmm. And it's not an intent to undermine, it's always an intent to help. Like, if I've got a relationship with, with an owner and we have a, you know, some challenging issues to work through, I do have a tendency to kind of promote the solution myself because I believe that I know how this person thinks and what the issue is and what the solution is. And that's one of the things that I, I constantly chat that I should not, uh, I, I, you need to let people grow. You need to give them the, uh, room to make decisions. Um, Jack Welch had a great line. He said, you know, if, if hire managers who can make decisions, because he said, even if they only get half of them right. They're Batten 500. They'd be a hall of famer if they were in, if they were playing baseball. And it is only through the, uh, uh, the you, you really don't learn a whole lot from your successful decisions because you believe that they come naturally and you did all the right things. But when you make a mistake and you make a, you know, you make a decision that didn't turn out the way it should have. That's where the greatest lessons in life are. And I, sometimes I have a desire to, uh, uh, over, over help in terms of, uh, somebody not making a bad decision, so to speak. But oftentimes, bad decisions are a great, uh, they, they're the best education of all. I mean, I look at my, my career and, uh, the less, the most valuable lessons of was oh. I will never make that decision again. That was a bad one. You know, you just kind of, that has to, and you, and you really love to say, how did I, how did I make, why did I make that decision? How did I make that decision? And try and figure out, uh, what valuable lessons you can glean from it. But I think leadership is, uh, something that you really need to continue to work on and, uh, and seek feedback. I look to great mentors. Like, you know, when I think of, uh, bill Marriott is just a remarkable. Gentleman, he's very pithy in his wisdom, he will challenge you and, and give you all the room to go and, and, and make whatever decisions you want, and he'll challenge you. And, and he'll always, you know, grab you by the arm and say, you know, you're, do, uh, you're doing a terrific job. I'm so proud of, yes. So, I mean, simple lessons of leadership like that they embed themselves in you, but they're, they're oftentimes you forget to practice them. He's a remarkable note writer. Uh, you know, uh, and, uh, and I try and emulate that and try to be, you know, make sure you find the time for, because a handwritten note is worth far more than an email or a phone call. And, uh, you go around to offices where GMs would've gotten a little note from an, you know, it's a, what did it cost Mr. Mary to put that in an envelope, you know, a a card and an envelope and a stamp and it's in a hundred dollars frame on his desk. You know, uh, it's, uh. Little things like that make it, make a, uh, make, make the most difference, I think.

Rachel Humphrey:

Well, I can relate to the handwritten thank you note. I come from a, a long school of the importance of a handwritten note, but I also love the concept of course, of learning more from some of your setbacks or challenges than from some of your successes. I think that's, that's great advice as well. You talked a lot about lessons, so reflecting on the past year or two. What is one of the biggest lessons that you've had, and how will that impact some of your leadership moving forward?

Liam Brown:

Uh, you know, uh, again, going back to, well, Mr. Mario's lesson about success is never final. I mean, we, as, as we, as we navigated through the year last year, we just, we had some, uh, we had some, uh. Uh, relationship issues with a donor that went a little bit sideways and I thought we had it all. I thought we had it all sorted out and everything. And uh, and I guess the lesson I learned from that was, you know, you shouldn't, don't be making assumptions. Uh, make sure you have all the facts and again, preparation and, and, uh, it, it was, um, yeah, it was quite a authority issue to resolve. And it didn't get resolved eventually, but there was a lot of, uh, challenging times in the meantime. And I guess my lesson, my lesson from that was, uh, uh, just to make sure that, don't assume that I, that I know what the outcome is going to be because I miss, I, I, I, I made a major misread of, uh, of, of, of the situation and. I, I, my lesson from that was to make sure that I have all the facts and dig a little bit deeper and, and don't be relying on the fact that I had a, a, a long relationship with this person and able to be resolved. This issue is a little bit more complicated than that. That was one of my biggest lessons this year.

Rachel Humphrey:

I like that. Having all of the facts and not making assumptions. Um, you know, in your roles at Marriott over the last. Oh my gosh. I guess 35 plus years you've had the opportunity to build and develop a lot of teams. Is there a common thread that you see in your hiring of that it that you're looking for when you're looking to bring people onto the team? When you're identifying rising leaders that you wanna continue to develop, is there something that you know you're looking for, um, innately in each of those?

Liam Brown:

I think there's one thing. Uh, uh, that's very important to have the people, uh, that you can under, that you can quickly glean and hopefully be able to glean very quickly that somebody, uh, will do what they say they're going to do. I mean, in our business, I think you need enthusiasm and a desire to serve because we are in the hospitality business. Uh, but you also, uh, and in any, in any, any aspect of life. Those who succeed are the people who kind of mean what they say and say what they mean. And they might not have all the skills yet. But if you, I think if you have that internal kind of, uh, internal kind of drive that says, I made a commitment and I'm going to keep to it, I think that's a, that, that to me is very, very critical. And then also the other ability to, to tell a story. Uh, and, and I think that that is broad enough for any leader to really work on their skills as to,'cause if you don't have a story, if you don't have a narrative about you, somebody else will have a narrative about you or will create the narrative for you. So I would, I would say, you know, hard, listen, this is a hard work. Never, uh, you know, is a, is a, is a, uh, is a, is a very good thing, the ability to work hard, but. Most importantly, the ability to, the, to, to just to do what you said you were going, what you say you're going to do, and to be able to get you, you can quickly pick that up. I think, in terms of some key questions about, you know, just asking people some successes or conversation. I've never had a boss who, you know, kind of challenged you on a particular thing. How did you respond and what did you do? And I think when people talk about, you know, here's the action steps I took and I made it happen. And, and they take great pleasure and, and pride in that, you know, that they, you know, accomplish something that was, uh, uh, you know, critical.

Rachel Humphrey:

Well, when I first started practicing law, I had a judge tell me that, um, that credibility of doing what you say you're going to do in front of the court becomes one of the most important ways of building your career. So, different industries certainly, but have never forgotten that. If you're gonna tell me you're gonna do something, then I hope that you're gonna follow up and do it, and then you're gonna let me know you did it. And then the next time you tell me you're gonna do it, I'm gonna know that you will. So yeah, that is one very relatable for me.

Liam Brown:

Yeah, I think it's a common thread across life. Uh, you know, just the ability to say, I made a commitment and I'm going to follow through. Well, it's one thing I try and instill in my children. Don't tell me you're going to do something and then don't do it. It's the most disappointing thing.

Rachel Humphrey:

Isn't that interesting again, though, that how that, that that same type of leadership advice applies across different channels of your life, not just when you're sitting in, in your corporate seat. Um, you know, we're gonna run short on time. I know that there's a lot of ground that I wanna cover that we won't get to. So I'm gonna wrap up with two quick questions today. As you're sitting here today and you're thinking about. Um, young Liam working in the dining car on the railway, and then where you are today, 35 years later with Marriott. What is some advice you'd give to your younger self, either about something you wish you knew then that you know today, or about how things work out for you?

Liam Brown:

I would say I wish I'd come to America 10 years earlier. Uh, I mean, I wouldn't change much about my life other than my earlier self. I tell it not to be. So I, I'm a, I'm, even though I put on a good face, I'm a very, uh, I worry a lot about stuff. And I would say that in my, in my, in my 36 years, I've worried about stuff that maybe, perhaps a little too unnecessarily. So I'd say be a little camera on the worry side of things. No, uh, worry about the right things as opposed to all, everything. Uh, but uh, yeah, but my other piece of advice, if you can get to America earlier, go it's great country and, uh, great opportunities. I love that. That's what I'd say to my younger self

Rachel Humphrey:

and I love the worry less as well. Well, as we wrap up thinking about the motto of its personal stories, which is empowering personal success, do you have one final piece of advice you'd like to share with our audience?

Liam Brown:

Uh, I, well, the one I would say about do, say what, do what you say you're going to do, but the other piece is your story or presentation skills. I, there are times, um, uh, when I, I, I would say the biggest opportunity a person has to be able to articulate a better story about the piece of data that I have been presented with. What does it actually mean? And, you know, what are the, the compelling pieces about it? Uh, that, that should sway me one way or the other in terms of trying to figure out, uh, what, what, what do we need to do here when we're identifying a problem, an opportunity, whether it's a, um, you know, a whole, uh, slew of information about some various owners and what's going on, but the ability to be able to synthesize it. In a very few key words in a story that is meaningful and makes sense. And then the data in the, the data in the presentation or the document supports that. So presentation skills and. Uh, presentation skills in the sense of not so much the document itself, which is often, you know, lots of great data and everything, but what does it all mean and what's most important in it? If there's three or four critical salient points, how do you kind of amplify that and amplify your story and then be able to, and then be very clear on what the ask is or recommendation? You should be able to say this, and this is because of this, this is what we need to do. And, uh, those are skills that you just gotta continue to burnish and work on. I think in terms of, uh, as a, as a young, as a, as a young leader, trying to figure out and navigate one's, uh, uh, one's, uh, career, I.

Rachel Humphrey:

Well, that is great advice and I appreciate you joining me today. For our audience, um, thank you for choosing to spend your time with us, you can find more great interviews@itspersonalstories.com. But Liam, thank you so much. Thank you for all that you do for the industry and for sharing a little bit of your story and some of your insights with us today.

Liam Brown:

That sounds my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Rachel Humphrey:

Absolutely. Thanks so much.

Liam Brown:

Thank you. Bye-bye.