It's Personal Stories, A Hospitality Podcast

Dave Hilfman, Board Member and Board Advisor interviewed by Dorothy Dowling

• David Kong

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Dave Hilfman, a distinguished leader in the travel industry, attributes his impressive career achievements to the invaluable guidance of numerous mentors who laid the groundwork for his sales leadership skills through a disciplined approach to sales. Additionally, Dave places great emphasis on the art of attentive listening, recognizing its importance in nurturing strong relationships that drive business success.

Dorothy Dowling:

Greetings. I am Dorothy Dowling, a principal of DEI Advisors. We are a non profit organization dedicated to personal empowerment. I am delighted to welcome Dave Hilfman, who is a board member, a business advisor, and formerly the senior vice president of sales at United Airlines, and the former executive director of the Global Business Travel Association. Dave, welcome. It is such an honor to have you with

Dave Hilfman:

us today. Oh thanks, Dorothy. Always a privilege to be with you. Thanks so much for the invitation to be a part of this today and, hopefully we'll be entertaining, inspiring, and engaging with anybody that ends up listening and watching.

Dorothy Dowling:

You always do bring all of that value to us when we have the opportunity to hear from you, Dave. I was hoping we could get started and really just talk about your remarkable career progression because I know You had an amazing journey where you started out as a sales professional, and then you became the prominent commercial business leader at United, which I know for many individuals is an amazing and inspiring story. So I hope you be willing to elaborate on your career journey and share it with our audiences.

Dave Hilfman:

Oh, sure, Dorothy. I can go all the way back to the beginning. Born and raised in Iowa. My, my mom and dad owned a clothing store, town of 6, 000, beautiful Washington, Iowa. I'm laughing because I'm sitting here. There's some notifications coming out on my computer. So sorry about the ding. Nothing on my phone, just figures. Anyway But N. I. was a great place. My yeah, I got a little sales experience selling suits and boys and men's clothing. It's just a great background, somebody had to sell the farmers a lot of clothes. So my family was the one and I felt so blessed about, having a great upbringing. But my folks were smart enough knowing the rather harsh winter conditions in Iowa. They had a little place in Florida. It's called Port Charlotte, south of Tampa north of Fort Myers, and I used to go down, this is like in the late 70s, and there was an amazing university that was a new university, University of South Florida in Tampa, and I just happened to stop in, got a chance to talk to some students who were there, and then ended up talking to some staff, faculty, and Wow. What a great school. I'm apparently a wonderful new business school and geez, it's warm in the winter. And as Dorothy, I happen to be a fan of playing golf, which I'm sure we can get into how that might get involved in the business world, but I just, I made the decision. Everybody else went to the wonderful University of Iowa, but I decided to go to U S F and I mentioned that because that's where I actually started in the airline industry. They actually, Eastern Airlines, which sadly is no longer with us in a commercial perspective, they are still a, I think somebody owns the brand and the logo on a charter basis, but Eastern was hiring a campus sales representative, and this is back in like 1981. And at the time I happened to be proud undergraduate student in finance, but I was also, I've gotten quite involved in student government and the inter fraternity council, and so I was pretty active on a lot of different fronts with students and charitable activities. And anyway, somehow the district sales manager at Eastern Airlines found my name, called, said, listen, we're starting this new program. We want to get it. These young, new, soon to be professionals in the working world signed up on our new frequent flyer program, and we'd like to sell some groups and whatever other revenue we might be able to get at the University of South Florida. And hey, you're probably too busy knowing all that you're doing, but on the outside chance that you might have some names for some people, his name was George Tribble. I'll never forget him was key to, to starting my career. I said, of course, George, I absolutely, I've got some great friends, really talented people. However, I really think I like to throw my hat into the ring. If you'd let me, I think I can manage it. And anyway. As it turns out, I interviewed, so did a number of other folks. I was very fortunate to get the job and that started my career in the airline business. It it was amazing. I always laugh about it because my thinking was. When I graduated school, I thought, hey I, my background's not in finance and probably will be making my way, in some banking role of some kind, but geez, if I could work in the airline business, what a great thing. I can fly all over the planet, maybe date a few flight attendants and then someday I'll get a real job. And then 37 years later, I never got a real job. I got a career that I absolutely loved. And the rest is history.

Dorothy Dowling:

Dave, can you talk a little bit about your mentors and how they help shape your career?

Dave Hilfman:

Sure. Dorothy, I had some incredibly good mentors. I, a lot of folks will say maybe you just, you'd have one or two. I understand the mentor is a very special designation in many ways. Cause you say you may have some teachers, but you really only have a few mentors, but I'm. I'd like to count five, six or seven really strong mentors over the years, which I feel I'm lucky, blessed in many ways to have so many talented people that cared enough about me, wanted me to do professionally as well as personally. Of course, George Trouble I mentioned was, my first hire, but I didn't get to spend a lot of time. He was very busy, full time district sales manager for Eastern and Tampa. Probably my first mentor was a gentleman named Ken Stowe. He was the regional sales director in Atlanta, Georgia at Eastern. under his wing. He was at the time. I don't know, maybe it was in his fifties here. I'm a young kid in the early twenties coming out of college and just as a quick aside, I just talked to him a couple of weeks ago. He is 99 now lives in Texas. Still sharp as attack remembers everything. I think he's a, He's legendary in that regard. It's just, most people aren't fortunate to be in that shape if they're even on the planet at that age. And he just taught me the basics. He was all about hard work. Maybe it was a little different style back then, but it was a lot about putting the time in being focused on the details, not just, Hey, we want to make money or I got to get more sales. He wanted to be focused on the details, want to make sure we did business the right way, which in his mind was diligent follow up, responsive to your clients, you don't let email, they didn't have emails back, we didn't have emails then, but phone calls letters. Following up doing the reports, right? Just a lot of the basics, it probably considered old fashioned today, but ultimately ended up, he was very successful. His teams were very successful. And he gave me a really good start from there I mean I had a number of other folks as I made my way through the airline years, but I remember very distinctly three or four others and this is going through, three and a half decades in the in the airline industry But a woman named cindy sheer who I haven't stayed in touch with as much as i'd But she was amazing. She was the director in new york city and I was with continental eastern sales. That was the joint Venture company by Commodal Airlines Eastern, where we sold both airlines. Very unique scenario at the time. Lasted a few years before they split the sales forces back out. But Cindy I'm a young sales manager coming up to New York City. She hires me. And here I am I don't know, 28 getting to run the New York City sales office. And I just remember How much she helped me. She didn't just go, Hey, have at it and call me when you deliver. She was very she was very dedicated to sitting down with me on a regular basis, walk through, always asking questions, always offering up whatever advice you need, help you need. I'm here for you. Yeah. I've got a lot of other things. Cause she was managing the whole, essentially, I think. All the east coast at the time, And that just greater new york area, but she even sat there and we worked for hours I remember on a saturday coming in lining out the territories of our sales reps. We probably had 20 at the time in the greater new york area, maybe even more I just remember the care and concern and attention to detail that she gave and that she was willing to give of herself when she had probably 5, 6, 7 other direct reports who were, maybe it wasn't quite New York City, but they were Jersey and Philly and Boston and Washington and all these other things she was watching over. And so I'll never forget that. And she never made me feel like I didn't know what I was doing. Even half the time I thought I wasn't, she showed a lot of confidence, which gave me confidence. She would certainly provide. Direction to me if she thought I was off track, which I certainly got occasionally, but Cindy sheer. And today she's I think she recently retired, very successful, left the airline industry, got into call centers and other things. But she was amazing. Another woman, who was an extraordinary mentor is bonnie rights who is still very active She's the chair person of the airline report reporting corporation board previously eastern then, high roller continental senior vp of marketing ended up running a couple other businesses and I just remember Bonnie, not only that again, extraordinarily bright creative, had a lot of structure, was able to rein in, if you will, sometimes, us sales folks will get very creative and that's critically important. Bonnie laid out a lot of great plans and just said, Hey, you can't use that great creativity yourself. And if you can't first off map out where you want to go, you'll never get there. You'll be all over the place. I always appreciated that. And Bonnie was always very direct. She did it in a gracious way, but she absolutely was, did not mince words. She let me know exactly what she was thinking. She told me very directly. She didn't beat around the bush a lot. She could when she wanted to, but she didn't very often. And that was very helpful because. And she told me sometimes when she, I think I told the story before when she said one time, she goes I'm worried because I think sometimes you like to be funny or you try to be funny. Humor is, I know, important part of, how you work your sales magic from time to time. I don't want you to be seen as flippant because we want you to be seen as serious and you can do both. You just, you can be serious and have fun, but I want you to look flippant. At first I was a little offended and then I realized, she's right. And it doesn't matter what I, it's the perception. And so I always appreciated her candor, honesty. She never, she only meant to be, helping me. And we laugh about that a lot today, but again, one of the great mentors was Bonnie Reitz. And other names you can imagine between Gordon Bethune, Larry Kellner, Jeff Smisey, Goster Munoz. My most recent boss was Scott Kirby, who was incredible. They were all wonderful mentors. There's others. I'm probably forgetting Jim Compton. One of my favorites was my boss for 12 years at Continental and United. He was incredible in so many ways, which maybe we'll chat about later, but, and then finally, Hey, Dorothy, you were a good mentor because when I came on board at GBTA and I'm sure we'll chat about that chapter I needed some real help, some insights on some stuff that I have not been involved so much in the association side of our business. So I thank you for being a good mentor because without you I don't think we would have been able to get things smoothed out at GBTA during the pandemic. And for that, I'll be a forever grateful.

Dorothy Dowling:

Thank you, Dave. And, there's just a couple of things that I'd like to just recap that I heard from you. Part of it was really that discipline of understanding. Sales and having a very foundational approach to the go to market strategy that your mentors provided for you. And the second was really around feedback, which, to me, feedback has always been a gift and to be able to listen and learn from others. Feedback to you, I think, is critically important. So those are important lessons for us all to keep in mind as we're on those growth journeys that is part of our ability to really be able to deliver is to Take that discipline approach and make sure we understand foundationally how we approach things and always be looking for feedback from others that can really power our future. So thank you for sharing that, Dave. My pleasure. I'm also wondering if you can talk a little bit about relationships, Dave, because you know how much I admire you as being such a, strong relationship leader and When I look at you, I know that you're very intentional in terms about how you have crafted your investments and relations. And I'm wondering, I, I know when we chatted earlier, when you decided to step down and retire from United at the GBTA event, which I know was a few years ago, it the vastness of the celebration and the recognition of Dave Hilfman was something I had never seen before. So I'm wondering if you can offer to our audience some of the tips and the success factors that allowed you to be such a successful commercial leader, but also invest in relationships in such an intentional

Dave Hilfman:

way. Thank you for the kind comments, Dorothy. As always, you're too good to me. I, I have to say from my background watching my mom and dad in the business, my dad was more involved in running business, but I always saw it as a amazing approach to other people that the time focus and attention that he gave the listening part. And I think my mom was very similar in, in, she was not. The full on full time sales, but I just saw her interaction with other people and it was always about showing that attention and focus and never. Wavering in that when people are around you that's a start in any relationship. I don't care if you're in sales, you're engineering finance. The first thing other people want to know is that you actually might care about what you're saying That you have an interest even if you don't you could never show that I mean If you want to get things done influence people end up generating results, and I do believe it's always the right thing, even if you don't, you don't, not everybody agrees with me probably on this, but you need to show people you care, you're interested, you're focused, and you do want to hear what they have to say. And that is the start of me talking about relationships. I always believe so strongly in that because my feeling was with all things being equal, let's just talk about any product or service and that's not always the case, but let's just assume everything being equal, aren't people going to buy from somebody me? That they trust and if they can you're just so simple. And that, always have that case because some products or services may be better, but let's just say the vast majority are pretty close to the same and the pricing and all those things. You're saying it just seemed like for the vast majority of opportunities. If you knew that starting out, then wouldn't you do everything in your power to find ways to interact with people, to connect people with people. So they would you give them every chance to actually believe in you trust in you and like you and not everybody has the same personalities in fact, nobody does but you know There's certain qualities and characteristics And one of the most important thing is to listen to other people first. And That was one of the most I think critical things I would always tell my teams. And I learned from my, most important mentors was listening. And that's said in every book, it's that not everybody actually does it. So listening, you can pick up a lot of things. It's different listening than hearing. Sometimes you can hear whatever somebody's saying, but you're not really listening. So you don't really process. So that was the key. That was one of the key issues. And then acknowledging that person's. Thoughts, their ideas, what they want. Again, I know we're coming at this from a sales perspective, cause that's the world that, I lived in, you lived in but it applies to anything in life. And once you acknowledge, Hey, I understand that doesn't mean you're always going to agree. In fact, there's many times you won't and that's life and that's business. But those are two big steps, listening, acknowledging, and then my, book was always trying to find a way to say yes. Even if it's maybe I always just tell my sales folks that again, the answer may be no. In fact, that may be the right answer and, but try to find a way to some solutions, some way to, to engage in doing business, expanding the business. Maybe it's totally net new business you're getting. But have the relationship because maybe if things don't work out now, the workout down the road, and that's important for a lot of sales professionals out there, they may just think, Hey, it's one of the I didn't get that. No, you can always, you should always understand there's opportunities if not today, tomorrow and it's important to stay engaged. So I would just say again, back to my focus on relationships. It was always, I know everything starts with the humans and the humans make the decisions. We know in today's world, you have amazing products and services, this technology, all the financial brilliance, all of these things, I know computers, AI, every, all this that's going on, but in the end, still, people make decisions. People are the thing that can make things happen. And that's why I was always about there's nothing more important than those personal relationships. And candidly, one of the toughest things through that pandemic. I think you felt it is not to be able to be together in person. These are amazing that we have blessed to have like zoom and stream yard and all these other great, my teams. That was critical during the pandemic, but not being able to be with another human in the same room face to face because it's, you can't, you just can't always replicate all those little nuances that you get. That was really tough for me during that time. Still had to learn to do it. Hopefully, got better at it over time, but it all comes down to that personal face to face relationships. I think that still makes the world turn. I know a lot of people will say I'm old fashioned and maybe that's just not the right thing anymore. But to me, I think that's still what makes. The world run. I think that's where business success is achieved and for anybody in whatever profession you're in, even if you're a doctor, isn't it all about you got it. You can be a brilliant surgeon, but if you still can't connect, you make your patients feel great. I don't know. I think you miss out on achieving the best success and results.

Dorothy Dowling:

And I think that is really fundamental wisdom day that you're sharing with everyone. And I'll tell you recent Harvard Business Review article spoke about, they talk about human skills. They've changed the word soft skills into human skills and all of the elements that you spoke about that humanity and really bringing the human perspective forward. First, they say drive 70 percent of success. So I think you're approach to understanding and putting your humanity first. I do know that's why you have such amazing followership in this industry, Dave, and the likability and your positivity. You always bring forward that you're someone that sees the glass half full. So it's that optimism and looking for a way to say yes and affirm others. And in the way you Approach business relations. So I think you're one of the most impressive individuals I've ever met in this space. So I thank you for sharing that wisdom with everyone.

Dave Hilfman:

Thank you, Dorothy, for that. And I knew that Harvard business school, they really did want to accept me into that MBA program. I'm sure if I had applied, I'm confident they would have said no, but they really deep down, I know that was it. But thanks for that. I did not. I didn't know they had done a recent article or had done some research on it and you're right, Dorothy, the interpersonal skills, soft skills, human skills, it's, I'm not saying it's a lost art. Some people are still incredible at it. And I've seen that and I'm so proud. I see a lot of my former team members at the airline, still my alumni airline at, United, I, there's a lot of folks still there. I just, I love to see them in action and then that's other airlines, other travel management companies, hotel. I see it all around but I wish they would literally have some formal classes around it. It, there's a lot of things that, are nuanced in all of that. Or, and they probably do, they probably, there's some schools that must do it, but it's it's just. to, I think achieving your best success in business and in life.

Dorothy Dowling:

Yeah I think you put that, that fundamental, and I do think that kind of mentorship that you spoke of that others gave to you, that's something you've given others and I'm just wondering if that could be a jumping off point, because obviously when you were the SVP at United, you had a. A very large team in terms of the business. And I'm just wondering in terms of your team leadership, how did you really help them with their development?

Dave Hilfman:

It was easy, thankfully, from my perspective, because I had incredible talent and I, I can't take all the. Credit for that. I'd love to, but obviously came from the Continental airline side. We were, I think we had about 600 sales professionals at the time at Continental around the world. And then when United and they had, yeah, maybe it was close to five or 600 as well and a great team. And obviously in any merger, you go through some tough synergy moves and you have duplication and boy, that was tough. But we were very frank and candid up front with everybody and offered some great packages So I just remember back to the merger days a lot of it's the tone you set right up front, you know If you're honest and straightforward with people, they appreciate their adults. They're professionals. I think most People just don't want to be lied to or obviously, but just be straight. And I think we had always said, listen, we're going to end up, we're merging two great companies with long histories, certainly have had their ups and downs, both of them. And we're going to, do our best to avoid a bumpy road, but it's never easy to merge two big companies that. Not 80, 90 year histories, different fleets, facilities systems and approaches, candidly. And I just, I remember the United team was wonderful about listening. Here's, we had a number of kind of folks in the senior leadership roles. We had a couple from United as well. Very talented folks. And, we sat down and talked through how we were going to approach things. And we just said we wanted to be as as transparent as we could. We wanted to hear everybody's insights and listen carefully. That doesn't mean we were always going to be able to do what everybody wants. Everybody knows that in business, it just, you can't always please everybody. But, and then we took, we had, we took about four or five months of touring around. We actually probably spend more money where we didn't just go in and cut down immediately and take out expense and people we took the time. We listened. We thought through what might be the best approaches from both airlines to try to integrate them. And do we do it perfectly? No we certainly had a bit of a bumpy ride but in the end, what we came out with was a plan that I think everybody felt like we bought into all 90 percent of the folks bought into it, maybe 10 didn't, but most did. We were very, I think, humane and generous and offering some package up saying, listen, we, we had, you had 30 in New York, we had 30 in New York, probably don't need 60, but everybody understands that. I think we did it in the right way when we offer people other opportunities in either other departments or different places to move or great packages. Some people just elect. Hey, no problem. I made me in my crazy about this and I didn't really want to leave. But thank you for being reasonable and responsible. And I've got X amount of health care and severance. And I felt really good about that, how we approach that. And then with our leadership, I, Thank you. The main thing is that I'd like to sit down with the leaders individually and then as a group. Because each time I would sit down and ask them, okay, what, how are you feeling about how things, I'll tell you what I think in the end, but I want to know what you think. I don't want to just say, here's my vision and then you guys all be nice and deferential and say, fine, I actually want to, hear what you think. All those leaders. It was great because they were not surprising, very bright, confident, candid I'm sure they were, they would be nice when they had to be with me on certain things but they laid it all out. And I listened very carefully to each of them. We all got together as a group. I talked to, I shared a lot of feedback and then gave him my thoughts about where I'd like to have things. And thankfully, in most cases, it. It generally mesh, not every place. And then, so when there was some things that would differ upon we would have some good, frank discussions about that sometimes I decided, Hey, I get to make the call other times that, you're right let's go with that. So Dorothy, it's back to what you said. And I know you were famous for during your time at best Western and the huge group that you used to watch over and all the other professional. Organizations that you've been involved with, it's, you take the time, listen carefully, which we've talked about before, make sure that you are willing, you're willing to make the decision when you have to, and don't be clear about that as a leader, sometimes you're going to make decisions that won't always be popular, they won't necessarily be what everybody wants but make sure everybody feels they understand the, why, here's why. And the reasoning. And it's amazing how people they'll buy in, or they will buy in with conditions like, Hey, I'm with you. I'm going to go with you. I'm loyal to you for this. I really don't agree, but I get it and it's amazing how people will end up getting behind initiatives or plans, even when they might say, I told you, so I don't, I didn't think that was right. But most cases, you know what they give you the benefit of the doubt. And so with my leadership team, it really was. It was just taking the time. We met regularly. I didn't keep them bunched up in meetings all the time. But I, it was, weekly, we talked may not always have been in sitting in person because I wanted these folks out and about I got a hundred percent market share at United headquarters. I don't need everybody sitting in the building. It was all about. But we always stayed in touch every week because it was important and I could hear what was going on in the market concerns, whatever it might be. And so in the end with the leadership, I think it's, if you have your right communication in place, you're empathetic, you listen, you all agree on stuff and then you march forward and you're willing at the end of it to take a look at the results. And make changes and actually do make changes when when they are required, it's incredible how people will buy in and we'll all march forward together, usually to a successful outcome.

Dorothy Dowling:

Which of course takes me to another question because beyond you just being so beloved in the industry, there are so many women that just count you as one of the most remarkable allies that they have had the good fortune of having in their life. And I always think back to you at the win it. By GBTA bands, how you would put on mix high heels and have fun with all of us. But I'm just wondering if you can share any advice to others in terms of that commitment that you made to allyship and mentorship and to really support so many women in their careers.

Dave Hilfman:

Dorothy, I just come to find out at least in the travel business. My personal experiences, women were so critical to our success. And the sales organizations that I was involved with and not surprising. You know sounds like a man pandering to a woman But I always thought the women were smarter. Anyway my wife would always of course echo that my mom my sister but truly, over half our sales force was comprised of women, which I always thought was great. Just a I'm not surprising. Women are often viewed. They're very tuned in the sales marketplace. Great with other people. And beyond just the actual composition of the entire sales force. I think my last united, almost two thirds of the leadership team was comprised of women. And listen, I just, there was no numbers, I, nobody's telling me you have to do that. It was just the right thing to do. Women had earned those roles. I just, I never saw the, where there's a situation where I wouldn't immediately go to my top women leaders for any situation. Like I had to go to a guy here or I needed to hire again. It's just, I think I always felt so fortunate. The women I was around, thinking of Bonnie and Cindy Monisa Klein, who, I'm a huge. of, and she still does some work at GBTA today was my VP of sales, North America incredible talent. And I think I was just fortunate in this industry in particular, which I think is embraced women at the highest levels, including CEO, which there's still more work to be done. I know Dorothy, right? We, we've talked about it. It when it first came out in mclea you others I just knew it's the right thing to do not only because my personal experience what i've seen benefit our sales force at the airline But i've seen in the travel industry hotel travel management companies I think the car rental industry is still working at it. Can we have beth knirk? That's one of the all stars laura, right smith. There's others. There's amazing talents I think there's more yet to be done there and I think they recognize that but I knew when it just had the right mission and of course mick was always somebody I looked up to Was not only important client, but she was just such a driving force in the industry and she can speak so clearly and articulately on things that I knew the whole industry needed to do, and we needed to get better about continuing to promote women in the leadership roles, not just hiring into companies and. I was happy that I was able to commit United's resources to that, not just money, but people in our time people like Cindy Hunter was so key, and Eileen, and there were so many others that were critical to helping out and win its mission, and to this day, we're, the carriers are very involved, including our friends at Delta, and I think American, and others Yeah, Dorothy I feel blessed because I was with great people. They happen to be women. I think it's it's important for male those men out in the industry to help promote continued shattering any ceilings that are there. And I think most of them are busted. There's some left, but I I feel like I was the lucky one on that. And thankfully, again, I had some great bosses that were women who, Help me understand and see the light in a lot of that. And and then, one other thing you asked me about positivity and why do I see the glass half full all the time? And one of my heroes and it's a little bit of a sad story, which you already know. But I always like to bring, it was my, my, my first wife, my late wife, Tracy she was always a hero of mine. She was in the airline business, she was a flight attendant at first, then an HR but I just saw how hard she worked and I knew she had some concerns and she was, occasionally frustrated, but she kept in there and kept getting promoted. She left Continental, went to Southwest, did great there, ended up leaving that business, went to Shell Oil. And she just, she loved the business. She also loved it when she became a mom and pretty late in life. In fact, it's age 44. And of course, then she loved becoming a mom. She liked both. She was an industry professional and a mom. I know you know that story. And I just was always so impressed by her incredible dedication to the business and to her family. Sadly, she was stricken with breast cancer and we lost her in 2010, but it was the same time as the merger was going on. And my late wife told me at the time, she said, honey, because we talked about maybe I should just leave and get out and let's... You know do some let's just i'm just gonna focus on you and she said are you crazy? I've got incredible team here at md anderson in houston What are you gonna lay on the couch with me? You need this merger was important to you Your son needs to see you working. We need you To continue on in this Honey, she was just great about it And if she not told me that kind of give me permission said you follow your dream on that. It's important to you and I did and she passed away, in October 2010 and the merger just completed and without her encouragement and her dedication to me and caring about it I wouldn't have carried on my airline career. Maybe I'd have done something else. Something who knows, but I'd be forever grateful. She was a hero. And so from that day forward, Berthie, when she passed away, I said how, she wanted to be around so badly for me and for her son, my, our son Marshall. And I decided every day I was going to find a day to be happy to be on the planet, be here, be focused on doing the right things for other people. Yeah, you're going to be in tough business and that's fine. You'll have your everyday frustrations and stress, but I'm happy to be alive on the planet. I'd carry on for her in that. And so when you talked about that, always looking at the glass half full, that's where really it comes from.

Dorothy Dowling:

Thank you for sharing that beautiful story, Dave. I had not heard. That story, quite the way you shared it with us today. And I'm someone that believes our partners are the wind beneath our wings and it's wonderful to hear that story about Tracy. And I know it has been an important part in shaping your life and Marshall's life. So thank you so much for sharing that. We're coming up near the end, Dave of the interview, And again, if I can just thank you for taking the time today to share your wisdom with all of us I'm always grateful to be in the room with you, Dave, you're really are

Dave Hilfman:

an icon. It's a privilege and a pleasure. Truly. I love spending time with you. You're always so kind, but beyond that, it's just fun to chat. Thank you again for the invitation. And for everybody that listened hopefully there was a few nuggets there. You had some fun and let's do it again, Dorothy.

Dorothy Dowling:

Thank you, Dave. So if I could also just express my thanks to our audience and just remind everyone that if you've enjoyed this interview with Dave, I hope you'll come and visit us on our website, DEIAdvisors. org, where you'll see webcasts and podcasts from other industry leaders. That will empower your knowledge and fuel your spirit. So I hope to see you there, Dave. Thank you again. And we will be in touch. Cheers.