Craig Bond, SVP, Head of Operations, Pan Pacific Hotels Group, interviewed by David Kong

Craig shares his career journey and his learnings. He offers advice on embracing diversity and creating alignment based on his experience working in multiple countries. We discuss strategic agility and finding inspiration for innovation. He shares the best advice he has received and we discuss work life balance. He offers parting advice on personal empowerment.

Transcript

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David Kong 0:03

Greeting I am David Kong, the founder and principal of D E I advisors today. We're delighted the welcome Craig Bond, the managing director of La Vie Hotels Resorts to our show. Craig is a industry veteran and he has been in the AsiaPac Pacific region for many years. It's a great delight to welcome you, Craig.

Craig Bong 0:24

David, thank you so much and for this great opportunity and it's wonderful to see you and it's a real pleasure to have you interview me today.

David Kong 0:31

Wonderful. It's great to have you. Craig. Let's start with your career journey. You've had a very exciting career journey. Can you share with us some of the in inflection points and the factors that drove your success?

Craig Bong 0:46

Sure, I'd love to, I guess it all, I can share with you how it all started in the beginning and I grew up in Newcastle, which is about an hour and a half north of Sydney, and I always wanted to be in the hospitality business. My parents were in the hospitality business across many different sectors within hospitality. So I walked into a door, Of a hundred key property that was on the beach. And I asked to speak to the manager and I was only 17 years of age. And I asked for a job and they said to me, what experience do you have? And I said really only from seeing my mum and dad and how they've worked in industry. And she goes, you know what? I really like you, but you don't have any experience in food and beverage. And she says I like you, I'm gonna give you an opportunity, but what you're gonna do is that 50% of the hotel faces the ocean. So every day I'd like you to come in and you're gonna go into every room under the balcony and clean the salt air off the glass every day. And that's how I got my first, opportunity into the hospitality business. And Once that I, I guess I demonstrate I turn up to work on time. I was conscientious. And eventually then she gave me the manager who was the owner. It was an owner operated hotel put me into banquets and moved me into weddings. And taught me how to carry three plates and how to do just general banquet service. So that was my entry into hospitality many years ago. So it was it was quite, exciting for a young guy to to get a job and someone that that took a chance on me and that really resonates with how I am as a as a leader today.

David Kong 2:12

That's the best way to start from the bottom and certainly your work ethic shined through even, in those early days, but thinking back your journey, what are some of the factors that drove your success?

Craig Bong 2:26

Look, I think it's really about putting yourself out there and taking a risk. I think in life if you don't take a risk, you, if you they can be certainly calculated in many ways, but sometimes to navigate those risks is very difficult. And I also remember I was 23 years of age and I got the opportunity for my first general manager position. And I was pretty young at 23 and 23. You think you know it all, but looking back at it, my gosh, I was very green. But you have confidence in what you believe that and and you do something that scares you. I remember that. At that stage of my life this opportunity was for a 30 key resort in North Queensland, but it was going into receivership. So I went through the interview process with a, with the recruitment company. And then they said it's actually just gone into receivership. And I went what do you do? Do I take the opportunity? So I did, but I had to pay for my own airfare to get there. It was about an hour and a half south of Cairns, which is in North Queens. I had to pay for my own transfer to get there. I took the risk, I paid for myself to get there. We were running on the old Whitney system back in the day, so there was no pc. And I run the hotel out of a petty cash tin because it was going to receivership. Long story short I, because I did what I did and I believed in that I could make a difference, is that the resort ended up getting sold. It got sold to a very prominent hotel. You had retired. We doubled the size of the resort. I got taught opera. I got a wonderful mentor leader to work with who believed in me because when he come to look to buy the resort he, I checked him in. I served him breakfast. I brought his bags down because that's what you had to do. So that was a really great moment in my career on doing something that that scares you a lot, that puts yourself out there, that takes that risk. And that's, and something that I continue to do today.

David Kong 4:18

That's a great story, and that's certainly a common theme that we've found throughout our many interviews. Successful leaders take risks. They have a belief in themselves. And certainly, in your case, You believe in yourself and whatever you didn't know, you knew that you could figure it out, and you are not afraid to put yourself out there, that's why you've become so successful. Congratulations to you. Thanks for sharing that story. Yeah, thank you David. You spent many years in the Asia-Pacific region and we know the region is far from homogenous. It's comprised of many different countries, each with its own culture, language and how business is done also varies greatly from country to country. To be successful, you have to embrace diversity and inclusion, and you've assimilated yourself very well into the region. Can you share some of the lessons that you've learned and provide some tips on how one can embrace diversity and inclusion?

Craig Bong 5:15

Yeah, look, great question. And inclusion and diversity across multiple countries is something that I that I still challenge in many different ways today. Not only with myself, but because I'm now based back in Australia. I've worked across, I think 13 different countries across Asia. But now I've, I'm working with a team that have not had that exposure. So I have what I've learned now, I'm actually now bringing back to my workplace to actually help my team along to actually understand the cultural differences. But first of all from my perspective, I've always been a great believer in. In reading people's regardless if the language barrier there, but you can read people's faces, you can see in people's eyes that Yes does not necessarily mean Yes reaffirming in their, in, in a certain way and to confirm what you've just said. So there is an understanding. I think for me it's about bringing people together. By bringing people together, you then create a level of confidence, comfort, trust especially when you're working in different countries and you're in their country. So I'm a big believer that food brings people together in most countries. And and embracing local cuisine and culinary delights and especially from. Different regions throughout where they live. So for me, it's about bringing people together by food because it doesn't matter which country are you in. It works. I think also it's about I've tried to learn, I'm not very good at being multilingual, but under learning those, the basics, it really goes a long way. It's like when you get in a taxi and you can. You can speak some basic language. The taxi driver automatically goes, okay, you're not a tourist, and people's perception of you changes. So I think learn the basics. And it doesn't have to be a lot, but you really are respected by that. The other thing I really is very important is understanding the cultural celebrations of an, of a country. The religious ceremonies, understanding them, being involved in them, asking the questions, what it's about. I think it's about being very respectful. As I said before, when you may give a direction to one of your team and they go like this and you can see in their eyes. They'd have got no idea what you are talking about. So it's about no problem asking the question or help getting someone to help you that may know the mo the language better depending on what level they're at. And I really enjoy it. I think it's I don't see as a challenge. I really see that embracing different cultures. It is such a wonderful gift to be able to have in my life and now for me to be able to share that with my team and I really love. That's a great story. I have my group director of sales and revenue, and she's grew up in Australia, has a very young family. Her husband's in the military, so he traveled a lot. She didn't, she brought up the family and that when I employed her, our company was quite small and we've just grown so quick, and so I've just picked her up and put her in. She's been to Thailand, she's been to Sri Lanka, she's been to Bangladesh. She's been to the Maldives and her eyes have just gone like this and to see. To see and watch and be part of her journey and really putting her into multicultural environments has just been wonderful. And and the more that I can continue to do that I will continue to do thanks

David Kong 8:23

for sharing experience. You had a lot of very important lessons and what you just said, and I really like what you mentioned about bringing people together, especially through a meal. One thing that's universal in Asia is everyone likes to eat.

Craig Bong 8:39

Do I, that's why sometimes the pants get a bit tight when you travel so much. Everyone, let's eat. And unfortunately I love food so much, so I love it. But it can be dangerous.

David Kong 8:49

Yeah. In Asian culture, we do believe in bringing people together through a meal. It's the best way to connect and agreed. I appreciate sharing those stories. Thank you. And the other thing that you. have not mentioned, but I'm sure is implied is your being comfortable with diversity. Some people are just not comfortable in a foreign country and it's hard to assimilate yourself when you are uncomfortable. So the fact that you were comfortable with that, Means that you can embrace adversity so much

Craig Bong 9:18

easier. Yeah, a very good point, Dave. You need to be comfortable, but sometimes you may not be comfortable. But you have to put yourself out there. And sometimes, it can be a little bit scary. And I have this saying that I've, that I learned many years ago. Just do something at least once every day that scares you. That just puts outta your comfort zone. And I try to bring that message to everyone that I work with. It's okay. Like people will say to me, Craig, you get up on stage, you speak and you just look so comfortable. I said, believe me, I am so nervous every time I get up on that stage. And I said, being nervous is okay. It's nervous. Energy is great. Yeah.

David Kong 9:52

Nervous, I believe. And that also the no, that energy actually gives you the excitement and passion. It's a good thing. Yes. Agree. But talk about alignment because you. In the Asia-Pacific region, you have a diverse team and your team members are located not in, only in Australia, but throughout the region. How do you create alignment?

Craig Bong 10:15

Yeah, it's creating alignment is one thing, but also creating alignment. Across the different countries operate sometimes when people have not even been to that country before and may not even understand the culture. Or sometimes I've got an expat sitting in that country that's working with another country that in another country that's not an expat. So first of all, I like people to meet. As much as I can. Working cross countries and come out of Covid. Of course, it's been a lot of zoom, which I still think is great. But again, bringing people together to meet, feel the pulse of the of the people within the organization. I always say that, or if you cannot do that, please pick up the phone. I, I was saying to my team yesterday is that, We spend too many too many emails, right? And emails are there for a purpose. They're important. But if you pick up the phone or have a zoom like we are doing today, where can see people even, might be able to feel the pulse, but you can still, read one's face, read one's the smile and their facial expressions. So for me, it's about bringing people together in the first instance. So I try at least to say, go and meet. Once you meet someone and you build that relationship, it makes it much easier when you have to talk about the tough things. It's great when you can also celebrate. But just being able to meet. So that's one thing that I really am big on is bringing people together. For example, we've just employed a brand new regional general manager into Sri Lanka. We operate three radison properties in Sri Lanka and before, and he's currently based in Singapore. So before he goes into that role, I bring him into our corporate office into Sydney. He can meet the team, we can take him through the organization, we'll take him for a meal. We'll then send him through to our Bangkok regional office, meet the team in Thailand as well before then he goes off. So it's about setting people up for success. But back to the question, connect, speak more, feel the pulse of people. And again, it comes back to understanding the culture as well, because once you understand the culture and there's a level of respect and understanding, that goes a long way once you meet people as well.

David Kong 12:17

Yeah, very well said. I agree with everything that you just said. It's about connecting, forming a relationship and helping people understand the various culture. It's just everything that you said is very sound

Craig Bong 12:31

and we're in the people business. David, we're in the people business.

David Kong 12:34

That's true. That's why we in the travel business because there's nothing like traveling to a destination and meeting people.

Craig Bong 12:42

We're so lucky. So lucky.

David Kong 12:44

Yes. You have been known in industry as an innovator. And sometimes I find it difficult to find inspiration. How do you find inspiration to drive innovation

Craig Bong 12:57

again? A number of things. You put yourself out there. I like to educate others as much as I like to be educated. By doing that is that I spend a lot of time meeting people, speaking to people, attending conferences because it's not it's not just about learning what's happening now, but learn from the past. It's, we have such rich history in this business, and there is some amazing leaders just like yourself. You're an amazing leader, David, and what you've done, what you've done for the industry. Could we learn. From what you have brought to the business because we don't have to change everything just for the sake of change. So history for me is very important. So connecting with people and a lot of the time it's connecting with some CEOs like, you such as yourself, it's these conferences that you have the opportunity to be able to connect with leaders that you aspire to. So for me, again, travel connect Go to other people's businesses, sometimes learn from outside of our business because what we do in the hospitality business we can learn from other businesses well, does not necessarily have to come from within our organization. And I think sometimes, innovation from outside only makes us better, is what we do today. So for me it's connect, travel, learn, listen walk up to those people that you know. He's David Kong. You may not have met before and introduce yourself. Because I always say that what happens when we go to a cocktail party in general, we walk in the room, we look to say, who do we know? And you go straight to that crowd of people that you know, and I say to my team, go to the people you don't know. And that's how you find inspiration. Because sometimes when you do that and you put yourself out there, you go, wow, I wasn't expecting to get that outta that.

David Kong 14:32

I love that. I totally agree with you.

Craig Bong 14:35

True. We're all guilty of it sometimes, I love that.

David Kong 14:40

Let's ask your related question, which is about strategic agility. We live in a very fast changing world, and certainly technology and internet of things are fastly changing the way that we do business. And there's so many disruptors that enter our business and they redefine the rules of the game. And to be strategic, the agile is really important. As a leaders, how do you become more agile strategically?

Craig Bong 15:11

Wow. It's a big question. You talk about, the internet and technology and we know in our business that we're not always the innovators when it comes to technology. And to being agile. I, I think it's about longevity. Technology moves so quickly and In our business, we just don't have the luxury to be able to can keep up with it. So I think for me to be agile and for our business to be more agile, it's like we need to do our homework. Yeah. Because there is so much opportunity, there's so many people selling you things, there's so much new technology coming out there, but you have to just choose what is right for you. And what is right for your business, where your business is at right now. And it could come down to budgetary constraints, it could be to manpower, being able to roll it out. So for me it's about the agility of our business is being able to do what we do. Stretch ourselves, yes. But just make sure what we do it well, and we actually complete the task from A to z. Because I find as a growing business, we wanna do everything now, we wanna do everything quick. The manpower may not be there. So the execution is not where we want it to be. So for us to be more agile, it's about staying in our lane, doing what we do. Try to make the right decisions by research and as I said, stretch ourselves, but just make sure the stretch is achievable, stretch. Otherwise, I find that the team can become as I said, I don't mind pushing the team, but it's about Having some clear goals and winning those goals. And achieving those goals and celebrating, because I think as part of being agile, there's also being able to celebrate as well.

David Kong 16:39

Yeah. You're right. We have the set stretch goals in order to be more agile strategically. Yeah. But also wanna make sure that we don't set people up to fail. Cuz then it becomes disheartening and people Yes. Will survive. Yeah. So well said. We all had our fair share of setbacks and disappointments. I know you've had them. How do you overcome them and use them as learning opportunities and eventually

Craig Bong 17:06

prevail? Sure. I have a great example and many of us went through it and I really don't like talking about Covid, cuz I like to say Covid is no longer here. But yeah, I was, during Covid, I was made redundant. Yeah, I was in, in in Thailand and I was the number two of a very large hospitality company. We had about 55 properties in 10 countries and I was made redundant and I went, oh my gosh, I've never been out of work in my life. It was like, first of all, it just, I knew it was, I knew it was going to happen, but what it actually did happen, wow. This just went, this is really, this is failure. And I, my wife says to me, and she'd been back to Australia cuz her mum wasn't well, and I was still living in Bangkok and she goes, this is okay. She goes, you've worked so hard over your career, why don't you take one year off and just really enjoy yourself and think about what you want to do. And I went, that's just the best advice ever because I wasn't even thinking like that. I'm thinking, what's the next job? Networking, getting on the phone, talking to people and I'm straight into that survival mode and doing what you do. And I went, wow, this is actually, I've never been in this position where I. Telling myself to stop. So it was a really wonderful experience because that's exactly what I did. And my wife said, why don't you go and sit on a beach for a year because you, there's no one on the beach. It's empty, it's covid. And so it, that really made me stop, made me think what mattered. And gave me that opportunity to reset and that I've never done before. And which brought me to the job that I'm in today, where, I met the owner of the founder of the company and we had a really nice journey of about six months getting to know each other and it's a startup business, right? Again, so I'd just been through redundancy, scared me, went a little break, think about what I want to do. Met Jerry. Moved back to Australia to get to know him over six months, just a couple of days a week. Because I thought whatever I want to do, I'm in because I'm very dedicated leader and once I make a decision, I'm in and we got to know each other. And now I head up this startup company and again, working for a startup company, we had, a handful of people, couple of small properties, and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, this is gonna go, this could either go this way or this way. And again, Put myself out there scared the hell outta me, what the hell I'm gonna do? Moved into the franchise business, which is not even in Australia. It's big in your part of the world and thinking, oh my God, what are we gonna do? Let's go. And so something that scared me. Put me outta my comfort zone. And and brought to me, brought me where I am today by something that happened to me that it ended up creating opportunity. And I guess that's the, again, a great message is, and I always try to tell myself everything happens for a reason. And rather than looking at a challenge, I try to look at what is the opportunity here? Because everything is about what is the opportunity and And so being made redundant, I saw it as an opportunity and brought to me to where I am today in my current role.

David Kong 19:57

I love that story, and again I agree with you very much. Every disappointment, every challenge is actually an opportunity also. And I'm so glad that you were able to use that time on the beach to reset yourself and have a fresh start. That's actually a good thing. Absolutely. Like you said, everything happens for a reason.

Craig Bong 20:18

I gotta tell myself that and I tell my team that because at the time it can seem very daunting and but it's okay. We always get through it. Yeah.

David Kong 20:26

Let's talk about the mentors and sponsors in your life. You've had some very good ones that no doubt had and parted in you some very good advice. Would you mind to share some of those advice that you have received?

Craig Bong 20:40

Sure. Look, I've had some you're right David. I have amazing mentors that, I still my mentors today. And I remember some from that when I took on that first resort that I told you about as my first GM role. And I remember Ziggy said to me, Craig, it's okay not to know everything. Being a young guy, you're like yes, I know everything. And I, and sometimes you can't be told, and he said, it's okay. It's okay not to know everything. It's okay to say, I don't know. So as a young guy coming up through the business where you always wanna impress and do the right thing. So great career advice is, it's okay if you don't know. Put your hand up and say, I don't know. Can you teach me? Can you tell me more? It's okay to ask the question. Asked the question and he said to me, you know what, Craig? I would rather someone ask me 10 questions and ask nothing and fail, right? But he said, But don't continue to ask me the same question. That said, good advice, so that was great advice for me and I take that with me right now. Another, the great career advice that I had I remember I was working Patrick in Bardelli who's a great hotel here, you would know, and at Pam Pacific Hotel Group. And he always say, Craig, be yourself. I always say to everyone because Patrick is himself. Patrick is Patrick. But he always would say to me, Craig, when you have that time with people, whether it's five minutes or two minutes, give them, that's their time. That's their time. So if it's two minutes, don't look at your phone cuz we are terrible at it. Just give people that time. And Patrick was so good at it when you had one minute with him, you knew you had him for that one minute he says. So make sure you give people that time. Wow.

David Kong 22:17

That. That's really fantastic advice. I'd really like that. So many times we talk to our superiors and they're looking at their watch. They're checking their email. What? They're talking to you. Yes. How do we feel, right?

Craig Bong 22:32

Yes. I look, I'll be honest, I'm still guilty of it. Every now and then, I still have to remember that every now and then.

David Kong 22:40

That's wonderful advice. Thanks for sharing that, but. We all know that having good mentors and advocates in our career is so important to our success. How does one go about finding mentors and advocates?

Craig Bong 22:55

Sim what I said earlier is about putting yourself out there. You have to build your own brand, build your what of who you are with regards to, and I've been doing it for a long time, even when I was a general manager, I would. Go to the conf, the hospitality conferences. I would say I'd get to know the organizer of the conference. And I know there's a big conference in Australia called Ahe. And James Wilkinson started this conference, oh, maybe 13, 14 years ago. And I got to know James cause he also had a hospitality newsletter that come out every month. Got to know him and I got on the panel on his first conference, and back then it was like, I think maybe 80 people at the conference. Now it's one of Australia's biggest conferences, so now over four countries, over a thousand people next week in Adelaide. And it's about putting yourself out there. Sitting on that panel, and then you get to meet people that, you're sitting next to CEOs, I'm just this little guy from, running this hotel in Melbourne and on a panel with some great leaders. And then you get to meet people and you get your name out there and then people show interest and you give your card and then you go and sit at the conference lunch and a table with people don't know. Speak to people, put yourself out there. Do something that that makes you feel uncomfortable and just continue to do that. You just ha pe the opportunities are not going to come to you and find a mentor. Mentors don't knock on your door. You need to knock on their door. And if, for those who think that it's gonna come to them, just because you're, for whatever reason it doesn't come to you, you have to make it

David Kong 24:20

happen. And you just talked about the two-part equation, which is. You've got to have a good personal brand. People have got to want to help you first. Why would they want to help you? You've got That's right. Prove yourself that you're sincere, you are genuine. You have integrity and honesty and all those good things, and you are good performer. That's how people would want to help you. That's right. And then you have to put yourself out there and you're gonna ask for help. Yeah.

Craig Bong 24:48

Cause if you don't, people, how do people know you? As one of my colleagues said to me the other day, Craig, but you don't need to go on that panel cause everyone knows you. And I said, but I want everyone to know you. I said, because I don't need to go on the panel for people to know I do it. Cause I'd love it and I'd love to give back to the business. But you need to get out there. So people go, I want I'll contact you to get on that panel. Otherwise, no one's gonna contact you if they don't know you. You have to put yourself

David Kong 25:13

that. That's right. That's right. Very well said. Let's talk about work-life harmony. You've always had a hectic schedule and you've got great demands at home too. How do you balance the two? How do you achieve harmony?

Craig Bong 25:27

David? I'm not good at it, to be honest with you. I was I was I'm actually. Pre Covid very bad at it because I travel so much and COVID reset me, and now I'm, now that, business normality is back and travel is full on again, is that it's something that I need to be very mindful of because I. In hospitality. I guess in any business, when you love what you do so much, you have to remember that there is love in your work and there is love in your own personal life, and you have to try and find that balance. But in our business, we are so good at saying yes, we are so good at wanting to please people, go the extra mile to help people out. Or you know what, I'll fly in one day earlier to come and see you at yeah, it's something that we continue to, that I continue to work on. I'm not great at it. I love what I do professionally and sometimes that does take center stage. So it's something that that I work on and try to get better at. And I'm not getting any younger. So some of it is with me and I'm not sure I can change it, but you just have to be mindful. Is that part of your professional journey? Is because of your family and the people that your loved ones around you and you can't leave them behind. That's right.

David Kong 26:38

I always say that the way that I survived Covid was because of my support network, and that is comprised mainly of the family as well as the team that I had. But the family is such an important part to my support network. Yes. I have to pay attention to it. All right. Thinking back to the days when you were a general manager for the first time you were that guy that knew everything.

Craig Bong 27:05

I thought I did,

David Kong 27:09

but what's the advice you give to your youngest self at that time?

Craig Bong 27:14

The advice that I'd give myself. Wow. Listen a little bit more. If I if I could give advice to myself back then, just listen more. Slow down a little bit, it's it, that doesn't need to be a sprint. It can be a jog. You'll get still to the end. Yeah. And and probably just maybe take the time out to enjoy it a little bit more because it's so focused on the job at hand, is that I worked in some amazing place. I think, wow. I wish I would've experienced some of those places a little bit more rather than being in the hotel and doing everything that come with my job. So I think I had, I've had a great time and a great journey, but I would've loved to maybe just experienced it a little bit more outside of the four walls of or the fence of the resort. And slow down because you'll still get to the end. But you you may experience a little bit more locally in and outside of that box.

David Kong 28:04

Yeah. Yeah. I wish I had slowed down a little bit too when I was starting off in my career, but at that time, you are working hard and yes, you are striving to move ahead and, Yes. So true. Required to work very hard. Yep. And don't pay enough attention to ourselves or the loved ones around ourselves. Yes. We have to

Craig Bong 28:26

now all bit. Yeah. And it happened. Look at us now. We still, we still do it. I'm about to travel from next week and I think I'm doing plus I'm taking the holiday with my wife, which would be great. But I'm doing 17 flight from this 11th May. And we go across maybe five countries, six countries. So call me crazy,

David Kong 28:44

okay. We are coming to the end of the show, but before I let you go, can you share one more piece of advice and it's on self-empowerment because our show is about self-empowerment.

Craig Bong 28:56

Sure. Yeah. Look, believe in oneself. Yep. If no, if you don't believe in yourself you have to start from there. So for me, it's about believing in yourself. Failure is part of the journey. It's okay. It's okay. And I think that's how you learn by your failures. And failure is part of the journey. And and I look at the business I'm in now is that being a startup, it's okay. It's part of the journey. You have to trust your instinct. If you if you trust yourself, that's where it starts. It starts from here. So trust yourself, think big. It's okay. I love people that think big. Think outside of the box. Think a little bit crazy. You don't have to think. Be conventional. And finally just love what you do. When you love what you do, the rest comes naturally. It really does. And if it doesn't get you up outta bed every day, you go find something that does. Yeah.

David Kong 29:47

I love it. Love it. And I especially like what you said the first thing that you said, which is to believe in yourself. Because if you don't believe in yourself, why would anyone believe in you? Correct. So true. So it's really important that we believe in ourselves. Yes. And a failures, but with that, believe in ourselves, we will eventually prevail. Yes. Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom. It's been delightful. I appreciate your sharing. Your stories and your wisdom with us. Thank you.

Craig Bong 30:16

Thank you, David. It's been a real pleasure and I appreciate your time so much. And again thank you and wish you all the best and hope to see you at one of these conferences, of which I'm sure I'll very soon

David Kong 30:26

one of these conferences. And to the audience, if you enjoy a show, I hope you would join us on our website. D e I advises You'll see plenty other interviews of this nature. It's great having you, Craig, and thanks to the audience for joining us.

Craig Bong 30:41

Thanks to the audience and thanks to you again, David. Have a great afternoon. Bye-bye. Bye.